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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 163901 times)

Rolan7

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #465 on: December 17, 2014, 11:23:07 pm »

Ah, the image I found must be from before that new texture pack.  Which is hardly very new now, heh, but I don't actually play WoW.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #466 on: December 17, 2014, 11:30:45 pm »

Stuff

Honestly it reminds me a LOT of the differences between the Tomb Raider posters and advertisement material... Versus the games.

Or the difference between the Princess Toys from Disney and the actual movies as well.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #467 on: December 17, 2014, 11:58:46 pm »

I want to be able to play a game, and play a female in that game without walking around in bikini armor and sporting DDD chest and a 20" waist. I want games that don't just use women as plot points for the protagonist to be more heroic or have something to get revenge over. Women who don't fall apart and collapse into the hero's arms (even when they themselves are the protagonist)

What games contain these things, btw?

Off the top of my head, Princess's Zelda and Peach were routinely plot devices. Then there are games like Double Dragon where the female is a helpless, speechless piece of meat in a dress who gets kidnapped solely to give the player an excuse to play. Somebody several pages back pointed out a case where Samus Aran in some version of Metroid I haven't played was written to be a helpless idiot.

Yes, stuff like this does happen. I don't dispute that it happens. It does. But there's no shortage of games where it doesn't happen. If you want to play a game with half naked ditzy sexualized women, you can. If you want to play a game without them, you can. As far as I'm concerned this means that both camps get what they want. This is a good thing.

But to complain that things you don't like but other people do like...exist, I think that's silly.

Smeeprocket: if you want to play games like you're describing, why aren't you playing them? They exist in abundance. There's no shortage of entirely mainstream, popular games that do and have what you claim you want.



is it just me or is most of that blood elf's stomach exposed by the armor?  Seems to contradict your point, or maybe I'm not understanding.

Read the headers. The one on the left is boxart that doesn't appear in the game.  Yes, big boobs, exposed skin, ridiculous pose, clearly sexualized. The purpose of that is to attract the young male audience. The one on the right is armor that you would actually wear if you were actually playing the game.

So...play the game instead of staring at the boxart?

Quote
here's the first google image search result for "blood elf in game":

Yes, now look at the next 5 (women) from that same search:



So, random google image search example, only two in six in showing any skin to speak of. And by "showing skin" we mean boobs, legs and majority of torso covered, showing midriff, top of chest, neck, face and some of the arms. And incidentally while it doesn't show in your picture, I'm pretty sure that armor set in your spoiler includes an ankle length dress.

Pretty far cry from "bikini armor."

Go to the mall. Check out your local high school. Turn on the television. There is less on display here than in real life. Look at those above images again. Now do a google image search for "church women.

http://ydtalk.com/jdispatch/2011/09/20/girl-scouts-serve-tea-to-church-womens-group/

Girl scouts serving tea at church are showing more skin than most of those blood elves.

Quote
And here's a straight comparison of blood elves without clothing:

Yes, if you deliberately take their clothes off, sure enough you'll see some skin. What were you expecting? To be able to deliberately get naked but not see any nudity?

Smeeprocket is saying that she, quote:

I want to be able to play a game, and play a female in that game without walking around in bikini armor and sporting DDD chest and a 20" waist.

If she wants that, she can very easily have it. And the people who want the sexualization can have it. Everybody gets what they wants.

Isn't that good?

Rolan7

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #468 on: December 18, 2014, 12:33:09 am »

is it just me or is most of that blood elf's stomach exposed by the armor?  Seems to contradict your point, or maybe I'm not understanding.

Read the headers. The one on the left is boxart that doesn't appear in the game.  Yes, big boobs, exposed skin, ridiculous pose, clearly sexualized. The purpose of that is to attract the young male audience. The one on the right is armor that you would actually wear if you were actually playing the game.

So...play the game instead of staring at the boxart?
No no, I mean the one on the right...  The one that isn't boxart:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She has a bare tummy... I think??  It is kinda pixely, I guess it could be a massive gem or something.  I'm only pointing it out since it was supposed to be an example of 100% coverage.

Quote
here's the first google image search result for "blood elf in game":

Yes, now look at the next 5 (women) from that same search:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, random google image search example, only two in six in showing any skin to speak of. And by "showing skin" we mean boobs, legs and majority of torso covered, showing midriff, top of chest, neck, face and some of the arms. And incidentally while it doesn't show in your picture, I'm pretty sure that armor set in your spoiler includes an ankle length dress.

Pretty far cry from "bikini armor."
I guess that's fair.  Four out of five are showing cleavage, but that's normal for real life dresses.
I wasn't trying to show that all female blood elf armor sets are sexed up, though.  I was just showing an example where it is sexual rather than functional.  Even as a dress, it's silly.  Nobody at a mall is going to wear that.

Go to the mall. Check out your local high school. Turn on the television. There is less on display here than in real life. Look at those above images again. Now do a google image search for "church women.

http://ydtalk.com/jdispatch/2011/09/20/girl-scouts-serve-tea-to-church-womens-group/

Girl scouts serving tea at church are showing more skin than most of those blood elves.
Yeah, the magic dress-robes I can understand.  Cleavage and all, I guess.
The actual armor-armor shouldn't have giant navel gaps though...

Quote
And here's a straight comparison of blood elves without clothing:

Yes, if you deliberately take their clothes off, sure enough you'll see some skin. What were you expecting? To be able to deliberately get naked but not see any nudity?
Er, no...  it's a comparison to show how male clothing in WoW sometimes has decency when compared to exactly the same female clothing.

Smeeprocket is saying that she, quote:

I want to be able to play a game, and play a female in that game without walking around in bikini armor and sporting DDD chest and a 20" waist.

If she wants that, she can very easily have it. And the people who want the sexualization can have it. Everybody gets what they wants.

Isn't that good?
It was clearly hyperbole...
Of all the clothing and armor you showed, only one of them actually provided the same coverage as typical male clothing.  The armor set you picked out first has a giant stomach opening (again, unless that's a gem somehow) (which makes the exotic facewrap kinda ridiculous, by the way).  The dresses were mostly okay... for dresses.  Some of them were more like harem outfits.  But one of them actually dared to not show the characters stomach OR cleavage!

So, if someone wants to play a blood elf female, but wants to cover their breasts and stomach at the same time, there is at least one piece of clothing which offers that capability.

The other 90% of armor and clothing options (extrapolating, and ignoring the fact that you were picking modest examples) are explicitly sexy, but there exists at least one modest choice.  That's... something, at least.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:34:48 am by Rolan7 »
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #469 on: December 18, 2014, 12:36:58 am »

No no, I mean the one on the right...  The one that isn't boxart:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She has a bare tummy... I think??  It is kinda pixely, I guess it could be a massive gem or something.  I'm only pointing it out since it was supposed to be an example of 100% coverage.

It's a symbol on the tabard, a sun with a dark burst behind it.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #470 on: December 18, 2014, 01:12:16 am »

No no, I mean the one on the right...  The one that isn't boxart:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She has a bare tummy... I think??  It is kinda pixely, I guess it could be a massive gem or something.  I'm only pointing it out since it was supposed to be an example of 100% coverage.

It's a symbol on the tabard, a sun with a dark burst behind it.

This. It's a rising sun, probably from one of the argent dawn tabards from 3 or 4 years ago. Compare the yellow sun with paler skin of the forehead.
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Rolan7

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #471 on: December 18, 2014, 01:24:25 am »

Ah, k.  It looks like the same tone in that picture, but I looked up the Argent Crusader Tabard and it's definitely a yellow cloth sun.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #472 on: December 18, 2014, 02:07:52 am »

She has a bare tummy... I think??

No, she's totally covered. A a couple others have pointed out, that's a tabard you're looking at. She's wearing clothes over the top of her armor.

Quote
Four out of five are showing cleavage

No, they're not. Do you know what cleavage is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_(breasts)
"Cleavage, anatomically known as the intermammary cleft or the intermammary sulcus (sulcus intermammarius), is the space between a woman's breasts, lying over the sternum."

Go ahead and click the wiki link for an example image. Cleavage is not what you apparently think it is. Four out of five of those dressed specifically coverthe space between breasts. What you are seeing is the top of the chest. The breasts, like the space between them, are completely covered. Compare:



There's a real life human girl wearing an ordinary shirt with a similar neckline. Is that sexualized, erotic revealing clothing? No. It is not. Also note that in terms of total coverage, the blood elf in her ankle length dress and fully covered arms and gloves is actually showing less skin than the real life human girl wearing a totally plain, ordinary non-sexual shirt.

Quote
ignoring the fact that you were picking modest examples

Actually...no. It's funny you should make that claim, because I went out of my way to pick blood elves because they're by far the most sexualized of out of all the races. Here's a picture of a human wearing newbie clothes. Here's another one. Here's a female gnome. Here's a female night elf.

What are you wearing? I'm in shorts and a sweater right now. Most of them are wearing more clothes than I am.

Quote
no...  it's a comparison to show how male clothing in WoW sometimes has
decency when compared to exactly the same female clothing.

1) As was already established, your image was not what you thought it was.

2) Female human in default newbie clothes compared to a male human in default newbie clothes. The male is showing more skin. Is he therefore indecent?

3) "Decency?" Again, these character models are showing less skin than real life humans in real life do. Why is that not good enough?

Quote
there exists at least one modest choice.

What? No. Just...no.

I don't understand. I truly, genuinely don't understand how this misscommunication can occur. I have shown you images. You've looked at them. But it seems like you're so deadset on the idea that they're all immodest and sexy that you're seeing stuff that isn't there.

Your claim about that armor up top on the right showing midriff? No. She's wearing a full suit armor and clothes over the top of that armor. Even if she took clothes off she would still be fully covered. Like, literally...in game you could remove her tabard from the paper doll, and her body would still be fully covered after removing that outer layer. And yet you're claiming that she's showing skin.

Here is a full set of twenty suits of high end female armor:



That's armor that you'd be wearing if you were actually playing the game rather than deliberately trying to take your clothes off to find out how much skin you can see. Are you seriously going to tell me that any of these are "immodest?" Are you going lean forward and squint your eyes to find the 2 out of 20 that show what would be about 4 inches of midriff on a human?

Is two out of twenty not totally covered head to toe like ninja not good enough?

Look at the death knight. Look at the rogue. Look at the warlock. Would you even recognize them as female if you didn't know that they were? And yet here you are saying that oh, "at least one modest choice exists."

Quote
The actual armor-armor shouldn't have giant navel gaps thoug

They don't! Look at that above image. The paladin is wearing armor. The warrior is wearing armor. No gaps. No stomach. No face even. Only the neck is exposed. They're not wearing gorgets. Can we agree that failing to wear gorgets is not an issue of sexualization? Now look at the the priest. She's the only one of that set with midriff showing. She' wearing cloth rather than metal armor, and that was a design choice. Yes, one out of ten, ten percent...a tiny bit of midriff showing. 90% are not.

Here is your original blood elf image. That's not armor. That's low level clothing from the starter area. Here is the following image that I linked in response. The one in the upper left is a blood elf wearing metal armor. As you can see, everything form the chin down, even her neck is covered. Altogether, four out of six have covered stomachs.

The majority of the time, four out of six of our random google image search examples, the blood elves, who are by far the most sexualized of the races...are wearing clothes that does not expose their stomach. Even the most sexualized examples are mostly wearing clothes. More clothing than the real life girl scouts in church.

What is the standard here? What is your expectation? At what point will you be happy? Does it need to be 100%? Do we need censored boxes? Maybe dress them up in cardboard boxes? You're so determined to find sexuality that you're were seriously complaining about pictures of women wearing clothing over the top of their armor earlier.

At what point do you start to suspect that maybe the games are not the problem?



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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #473 on: December 18, 2014, 02:30:48 am »

Here are 18 sets of female armor from Diablo 3.
I think the most egregious sexualization that we've seen on this thread was here. Those shoes! Seriously! IDGAF about midriffs! Those look like 4 inch heels! Imagine fighting demons in them! It's not going to happen!

Rolan7

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #474 on: December 18, 2014, 03:33:35 am »

Look at the death knight. Look at the rogue. Look at the warlock. Would you even recognize them as female if you didn't know that they were? And yet here you are saying that oh, "at least one modest choice exists."

I was talking about blood elves...  "The most sexualized of all the races", as you say.  Not other races wearing some previously unmentioned armors.  Most of the sarcasm in your post would be accurate if I was making claims about gnome death knights, but I wasn't... at all.

I guess you're right that there are lots of non-erotic armors for non-blood elves.  And you're also right that there are some modest armors for blood elves too!  Thanks for correcting the misconception I reached when you posted of a bunch of blood elves in pretty dresses.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #475 on: December 18, 2014, 04:04:38 am »

I was talking about blood elves...  "The most sexualized of all the races", as you say.
Not other races wearing some previously unmentioned armors.
 

Except that they were mentioned in the very same post, immediately before the blood elf image:

Here's all 20 suits of Tier 11 armor from WoW. Only two out of 20 so much as show the midriff. A few are "so revealing" as to show a little bit of elbow and face. Several have full 100% body coverage.

Wow is an especially good example, because it's so totally not platemail bikinis, but people keep insisting that it is. I can only assume that people claiming it's that way have never played it.

Notice that the "Tier 11 armor from WoW" link in that quote is to the same image as shown in the post that you're now replying to. That's immediately before the blood elf image. Also notice that there's no "last edited" entry on that post. That's been there the entire time. I brought up the general case  of WoW armor and gave you a link to a picture of it before I addressed the specific case of blood elves...again, because they happen to be the most sexualized case, they seemed worthy of going into greater detail about. I guess you saw boobs and just ignored everything else. I guess can understand that. She is pretty hot.

Anyway, I think what we should all get from this is confirmation bias. If you look at 20 examples looking for sexiness, there's a certain tendency to see the one sexy and ignore the other 19. And if somebody like Smeeprocket is excessively sensitive to something like this, she's going to tend to focus on those cases no matter how rare they actually are.

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #476 on: December 18, 2014, 04:09:41 am »

Guys, what I think we can all agree upon is that WoW is not that bad, in terms of sexualization, not matter how badly users abuse the dance animations.

No, to truly find a target worthy of complaint, we need only turn our eyes to Japan. The answers to questions such as, "What were they thinking?" or "Is that supposed to protect you from swords, much less nip slips?" are left as an exercise to the reader.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #477 on: December 18, 2014, 04:13:02 am »

Making women character too sexy is a cheap effect in videogame, and it's not well recieved, especially in "serious" games (exept in Japan but there I actually do't quite understand how it work). Beside, peoples that want smut mod (and there is nothing wrong with that).


Anyway what kind of feminism is "women are showing too much skin in art"? Taliban wave? American prudeness posing as feminism is one of the thing that make me support GG. Make "feminist" argument all you want, but keep them out of the metacritics score and don't expect the world to agree, and don't call them mysoginist if they don't.
I never saw as much subtle sexism as I saw in the game review "journalism", as for ethics, their justification was "but other peoples do that too". Well maybe but not in MY hobby.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #478 on: December 18, 2014, 05:19:07 am »

Guys, what I think we can all agree upon is that WoW is not that bad, in terms of sexualization, not matter how badly users abuse the dance animations.

No, to truly find a target worthy of complaint, we need only turn our eyes to Japan. The answers to questions such as, "What were they thinking?" or "Is that supposed to protect you from swords, much less nip slips?" are left as an exercise to the reader.
To be fair that game is literally an RPG dating sim, it's a game designed to appeal pretty solely to the male demographic because they are the ones that are going to be interested in a game where you woo and marry one of several female choices. :P The exact same type of game aimed at females can end up with covers looking just as bad in the opposite direction at times:
Spoiler: Example (click to show/hide)
Also an interesting statistic, but from what I'm seeing online it seems like Japan actually has one of the highest female "gamer" percentages worldwide, though I haven't been able to pin down any concrete numbers on my search yet.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #479 on: December 18, 2014, 06:21:26 am »

Huh. How about that.
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