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[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Based on what I have seen from the first two hundred or so posts, I have a minor experiment to propose:

For the next, say, 50 posts, everyone posts from the opposite side's viewpoint.  And not half-assed, at that.  Try putting your ideals to the test by acting on the other side.  May lead to there being more understanding on the topic when you have been on both sides.  May not.  Only way to know is to try.

[TamerVirus]

I feel as if opposite day in a debate is just gonna lead to alot of ridiculous strawpeople

[Caz]

Based on what I have seen from the first two hundred or so posts, I have a minor experiment to propose:

For the next, say, 50 posts, everyone posts from the opposite side's viewpoint.  And not half-assed, at that.  Try putting your ideals to the test by acting on the other side.  May lead to there being more understanding on the topic when you have been on both sides.  May not.  Only way to know is to try.

What's the opposite argument to that? People were arguing that women are usually put in video games to be some sort of subject/motivation for the male character to do something i.e female character is kidnapped - go save them! or: female character dies - seek vengeance!

What's the opposite to that? That female characters aren't used that way or male characters are used that way?

For my part I'd argue that all kinds of characters are used as subjects to further the goal of the protagonist. Whether it's burning down the village of the protagonist (a common trope), killing the protagonists' family, or killing/kidnapping their love interest (usually a female simply because most protagonists are male heterosexuals), many things are used for this purpose. I don't think it's purely or even mostly a 'women in video games' type of thing.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

What's the opposite argument to that? People were arguing that women are usually put in video games to be some sort of subject/motivation for the male character to do something i.e female character is kidnapped - go save them! or: female character dies - seek vengeance!

What's the opposite to that? That female characters aren't used that way or male characters are used that way?

Give me a break, I was on page 10 (25 posts per page) when I wrote that.  I did not expect the topic to have shifted as much as it did.  In a more controversial topic, it could be called forwards for it.

[AlleeCat]

It's pretty likely that many "gender choice" games started life as a female-only game concept, and they added the male choice afterwards to increase their funding and sales potential

This makes sense to me because most of the RPGs I've played that let you choose your gender are generally better as a female character. Compare female Shepard's voice actor to male Shepard's voice actor, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Caz]

What's the opposite argument to that? People were arguing that women are usually put in video games to be some sort of subject/motivation for the male character to do something i.e female character is kidnapped - go save them! or: female character dies - seek vengeance!

What's the opposite to that? That female characters aren't used that way or male characters are used that way?

Give me a break, I was on page 10 (25 posts per page) when I wrote that.  I did not expect the topic to have shifted as much as it did.

I went back to page 4 or 5 to see what was happening back then. Though yeah, the conversation shifted very quickly.

[wierd]

Male Shepherd....

It seems they went out of their way to make him as much of a womanizer as is possible I think.  True, you can play it totally asexually, but the game throws itself at you constantly. If you go brush off the female NPC advances, then male NPCs suddenly come out of the closet at you, and get super disappointed that you didnt just immediately start mouth kissing them.

I understand that romance is something that 99% of the population is in to, but romance is not "OMG! I HAVE HORMONES!", which is exactly what my experience playing MassEffect seemed to come off as constantly when they tried to introduce love interests.  Shallow, petty... not really a relationship at all.

I get that games are supposed to be about fantasy fullfillment and all-- but I found mass effect to be rather tacky in this respect.

[LordBucket]

I don't want to make them illegal, but let me humor you and assume for the moment that I do.

If this was purely an opt-in thing where people who want to see sexualized women are allowed to, I'd be fine with that. But you don't have to be abducted to be exposed to them, you just have to go out in public. People of all ages, even impressionable children, see them in ads and posters and trailers. You can't browse through games without seeing plenty of sexualized women.

Cigarettes are a good comparisons because these games could be handled similarly. Like secondhand smoke laws, you could only play them in private or in an area where it's understood that there will be sexualized women, to prevent your behavior from negatively affecting others. There could also be laws regulating their advertisement and requiring them to be sold separately from regular games

Much as I don't personally feel it's justified, I think if you wanted to apply some sort of basic "public decency" rule to preventing overtly nude or sexualized imagery from being on public display...I don't think I'd be opposed to it. Though I think I'd prefer that such a rule, if it were to exist, were to be applied either universally or not at all. No reason to single out games, when this is visible at every grocery store:




Or do you want to selectively apply the rule only in cases where men are the intended consumer?

[Caz]

Male Shepherd....

It seems they went out of their way to make him as much of a womanizer as is possible I think.  True, you can play it totally asexually, but the game throws itself at you constantly. If you go brush off the female NPC advances, then male NPCs suddenly come out of the closet at you, and get super disappointed that you didnt just immediately start mouth kissing them.

I understand that romance is something that 99% of the population is in to, but romance is not "OMG! I HAVE HORMONES!", which is exactly what my experience playing MassEffect seemed to come off as constantly when they tried to introduce love interests.  Shallow, petty... not really a relationship at all.

I get that games are supposed to be about fantasy fullfillment and all-- but I found mass effect to be rather tacky in this respect.

This happens as female shepard too, to be fair.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's a side-effect of how Mass Effect's writing got generally side-tracked as the series went on. It gets more and more compacted, with Mass Effect 1 being very well paced, to Mass Effect 2's strange but functional fast lane, to the run through a trash compactor obvious beta do not pass go do not collect two hundred spacebux that is Mass Effect 3.

To say the pacing was bad is a bit generous. While this is visible in the romances it can also be seen in how Mass Effect 2's plot is....wrong. Completely wrong. So aliens are attacking human colonies, who gives a fuck? We just found out in the last game that the galaxy is about to be swept clean, and why is Cerberus now a vitally big part of the plot when they were literally a side mission in ME1? ME3's buildup should have been what ME2 was, ME2's conflict should have been minimized and added to that, while ME3 should have been the gaping missing hole of fighting the Reaper War. But alas.

[AlleeCat]

Male Shepherd....

It seems they went out of their way to make him as much of a womanizer as is possible I think.  True, you can play it totally asexually, but the game throws itself at you constantly. If you go brush off the female NPC advances, then male NPCs suddenly come out of the closet at you, and get super disappointed that you didnt just immediately start mouth kissing them.

I understand that romance is something that 99% of the population is in to, but romance is not "OMG! I HAVE HORMONES!", which is exactly what my experience playing MassEffect seemed to come off as constantly when they tried to introduce love interests.  Shallow, petty... not really a relationship at all.

I get that games are supposed to be about fantasy fullfillment and all-- but I found mass effect to be rather tacky in this respect.

I always hit on all the female characters, but then again, I was also FemShep. I'm pretty sure in ME3 that I ended up sleeping with two different women. It's honestly not that different.

[Reelya]

It's pretty likely that many "gender choice" games started life as a female-only game concept, and they added the male choice afterwards to increase their funding and sales potential

This makes sense to me because most of the RPGs I've played that let you choose your gender are generally better as a female character. Compare female Shepard's voice actor to male Shepard's voice actor, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Plus the clothing choices. I often play female characters, just because they get objectively better clothes. Whereas for male characters it's like "yeah chuck whatever in. A sack for a shirt and some pants".

[Caz]

It's pretty likely that many "gender choice" games started life as a female-only game concept, and they added the male choice afterwards to increase their funding and sales potential

This makes sense to me because most of the RPGs I've played that let you choose your gender are generally better as a female character. Compare female Shepard's voice actor to male Shepard's voice actor, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Plus the clothing choices. I often play female characters, just because they get objectively better clothes. Whereas for male characters it's like "yeah chuck whatever in. A sack for a shirt and some pants".

They get cooler armour though.

[AlleeCat]

It's pretty likely that many "gender choice" games started life as a female-only game concept, and they added the male choice afterwards to increase their funding and sales potential

This makes sense to me because most of the RPGs I've played that let you choose your gender are generally better as a female character. Compare female Shepard's voice actor to male Shepard's voice actor, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Plus the clothing choices. I often play female characters, just because they get objectively better clothes. Whereas for male characters it's like "yeah chuck whatever in. A sack for a shirt and some pants".

I always hated the leather armor for females in Dragon Age: Origins, but otherwise Dragon Age seems to be good about allowing the same armor for either gender.

[wierd]

I just got tired of the "teen angst" feel I got from "no romance male shepherd".  It stank of "You can't understand me! Boo hoo!" instead of something better, like "We work together, a relationship like that really wouldnt be appropriate, you know?"  or even "I can understand your feelings, but I really value your friendship and independent judgement." 

That game went out of its way to try to be "Straight" or "Gay"-- with "No romance" getting the "ZOMG! ISSUES!" choice.  I didn't like that. My orientation is just as valid as anyone else's you know. I rally like talia's character, and would totally talk programming with her for instance-- but I wouldnt try to date her.  The game often mistook my intellectual interest in her character for "Oh! He wants quarian booty!" and that made me displeased. Same with asking questions of the matriarch's daughter-- "Oh, you want BLUE CHICK BOOTY!"  Nooooooo NO NO! --- Damnit! Excuse me for just being curious about other cultures, and wanting to get to know my crewmates!

After you snub all the female interests, the game then goes "OH! You must be GAY then!" on me, and has Kaidan make his gay romance pronouncement totally out of the blue.  Seriously-- No. just no. That character was dropping totally pervy hetero one-liners the whole game previously. Either he's REALLY in the closet and has an ego problem that he feels he needs to compensate for-- or that whole thing just does not fit.  Sorry Mass Effect writers, but I actually pay attention to the characters.

I didnt like how the game tried to find a mold I was supposed to fit into, and kept grasping wildly trying to figure out what kind of booty call I wanted.  I was especially disappointed that they played the "My heart was broken too many times! I have seperation issues! YOu can never understand me! BOO HOO!" as the rationale for no-romance male shepherd. How about "you know, I'm just not into sex. It's not my thing. If you guys are having trouble being cooped up on the ship, we can stop at the citadel for shoreleave ok? Just come back to the ship by 08:00, and whatever happens out there, stays out there, ok? When we get back, let's try to focus on getting rid of those reevers alright?"