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[Graknorke]

it's hyperbole. As I said, there's a big difference. There can be no correlation drawn between the two.

It does not end in people getting hurt or oppressed, it is just ultimately an opinion that affects nothing.

Correlation? Anyway, thinking bad things about feminism doesn't end in people getting hurt or oppressed either.

EDIT: Never really played Metroid (sorry), was Prime written by someone different?

[Caz]

So Samus was retroactively a traumatized submissive pining over her dead master, it just never came up until this travesty wedged into the narrative.  (Not counting her comic book backstory, where she was a young girl.  Of course she was traumatized *then*, but then she killed Ridley and avenged her parents)

Oh, and the Prime Series?  Declared noncanon.  Even though it was far better gameplay and story wise, but I guess he didn't like an actually competent team having anything to do with his deadly-yet-subservient waifu.

That sounds horrible. I liked the Metroid games.

[Loud Whispers]

/tg/ is not about hating on GW. Its about talking about tabletops and making awesome quest threads and making delightful homebrews.

Right, that's it; my eyeballs just exploded in a fountain of gore and the fact that it's 1 in the morning doesn't help.

Seriously Kingbodz quest threads killed /tg/, homebrews admittedly are delicious but no one talks about tabletops because gee dubya killed everything so they're too busy arguing over editions and trying to find based Chinaman.

*This is my cue to leave. PM me any replies if you care, I don't think I can reply to or even see every reply in this thread and I'm a goner. Last time it was 18 ninjas. 18!

[Reelya]

Feminism encompasses a whole lot of stuff, equal treatment is one aspect, and nobody is disputing that.

But then a whole lot of stuff is also under the feminist label, e.g. TERFs are feminists and they are a hate group against transgender people. Does hating on TERFs make me a misogynist? It's not limited to a few ratbags either, one senior professor at my local university is a TERF, she has written a lot of anti-trans stuff and is considered an important figure in the local feminist academic community.

Then there's the issue of data that feminist groups now and in the past have spread around. If your argument is about the data then someone else citing conflicting data or the basis of that data isn't being "obtuse". I know it might seem that way if you're used to just citing figures and everyone shuts up automatically because "lol hur i'm right" but open debate doesn't work like that.

One example from the 1990's was the meme that domestic violence reports spike up 40% on superbowl sunday. This was spread by feminist groups and widely reported without any fact checking. Unfortunately, there was no basis for the figure, and it contradicts figures from domestic violence shelters. This was a problem because they claim was that 40% more women need domestic violence shelters during superbowl sunday, but there is no data from shelters to support this. Does pointing out that the 40% spike didn't exist make me a domestic violence apologist?

Feminist groups have a history of spreading around facts and figures that don't stand up to journalistic fact checking. So sue me for check citations, other sources, etc etc. Disputing the numbers of rapes doesn't mean someone is doing "rape apologia". If I was to claim that there's a murder epidemic but I couldn't back that up with citations, someone who said "just stop right there, murder is actually down, not up", would I be entitled to label that person a "murder apologist"?

[Caz]

Feminist groups have a history of spreading around facts and figures that don't stand up to journalistic fact checking.

Doesn't every group? Every system of ideals seems to have extremists in one way or another. Just like I'd say that ISIS doesn't represent Muslims as a group, I wouldn't include the views of feminazi nuts to represent feminism.

[Ogdibus]

It's a concept, around which different ideologies are built.  That's why it's hard to pin down.

People will find anything to argue about, I suppose.

Clarifying the nature of a key element of our discussion is hardly "anything".  What I said was also very relevant to supporting the claims that you are making now.

[Shinotsa]

So what I'm getting from this is that the worst case of feminist misreporting is still better than most major news stations

[Loud Whispers]

Everyone reports better than most major news stations.

Take that with a pinch of salt.

A small pinch.

[Quartz_Mace]

I just hate Metroid Other M so very much.  It's like some otaku wrote a fanfiction where they, as Adam Malkovich, got to order Samus around and save her from Ridley and paralyze her (what) then save her life again through heroic self sacrifice.  And she goes along with it all because he can't write female characters so she's a 1-dimensional waifu with a baby fixation who needs a firm heroic man to face enemies she's already killed by this point in canon.

Which is fine, I mean, there's some dumb-ass fan fiction out there.  Except...
It's totally canon (and possibly the last one)
It's programmed by ... Team (Jiggle) Ninja.  And her power armor keeps disappearing mid-fight somehow even though that's never happened before.
Okay, fine, I'll just ignore it - OH WAIT, the story was written by the same guy who wrote the rest of the games (except the Prime trilogy).  So Samus was retroactively a traumatized submissive pining over her dead master, it just never came up until this travesty wedged into the narrative.  (Not counting her comic book backstory, where she was a young girl.  Of course she was traumatized *then*, but then she killed Ridley and avenged her parents)

Oh, and the Prime Series?  Declared noncanon.  Even though it was far better gameplay and story wise, but I guess he didn't like an actually competent team having anything to do with his deadly-yet-subservient waifu.

Ugh, just... fuck that guy.

It's like the opposite of Tomb Raider.  Lara Croft was designed to be a strong female role model, but due to technical limitations became a popular example of gamers demanding unrealistic boobies.  Eventually a game was made where she got actual character development, looked realistic, and kicked a lot of ass.

While with Metroid we find out that we only *thought* Samus was a strong role model because the NES/SNES didn't let this dumbass write much.

Mainly posting this rant because I don't expect it to actually bother anyone.  Pretty much everyone seems to agree that Other M is awful.  Even some random athletic guy in the grocery store who complimented my Metroid Metal shirt (<3). 

I checked the current Steam sales looking for examples of exploitation but didn't see any major ones.  Just a bunch of military shooters and cartoony indie games.  Very few women at all, actually.  The ones I saw had boob armor, which is of course ridiculous and somewhat pandering, but it was at least better than this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.moddb.com/games/unreal-ii/images/unreal-21

(Sorry I know that's from 2003 but I just had to share it, my sides, why do people like me buy stuff like that)

I know that this is a bit off topic (although let's face it, this thread went off in a screeching derail a while ago), but I'm so disgusted by boob armor. 1. It'd get you killed in battle. 2. Real female fighters wear pretty much the exact same armor as males (in the days of plate armor they were all custom made, but they all shared some similarities. In fact, men wore breastplates and they were the same.) and 3. Just eww.

Furthermore: why do men find women with big breasts so attractive? I'm a dude and I never got it. Those things are for feeding children, not feeding some creep's sexual intents. When there are full-grown men literally drooling over those, they are literally acting just like babies.

[Reelya]

It's not just fringe groups though. Many local domestic violence advocacy groups have false data in their fact-sheets even today:

http://www.womensafe.org/statistics-on-partner-violence/?doing_wp_cron=1418781049.3792018890380859375000

Domestic violence is the number one cause of emergency room visits by women.

Number one cause? nytimes would take issue with that:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/11/opinion/feminist-number-games.html

current literature from the Health and Human Services Department's Office of Women's Health still claims that 30 percent of the women who visit emergency rooms have suffered domestic assault, a figure based on a misreading of earlier studies.

The most important finding is that of all the women who went to an emergency room for any reason -- roughly 47 million in 1994 -- only half of 1 percent, or around 200,000, sought emergency treatment for injuries resulting from domestic violence.

DV being the #1 cause of emergency room visit for women was firmly debunked 20 years ago but is still repeated by women's advocacy groups today.

200,000 is 200,000 too many, but it's not the "number one cause" out of 47 million women's health issues. You don't have to "apologize" for DV to point out that calling it the number one cause of hospital visits is just false.

Vastly inflating figures and fearmongering isn't helping victims. It just breeds an air of fear and confusion, and makes it hard to get correct data. DV is not (according to the CDC or BoJ or anyone) the leading cause of emergency hospital visits for women. If you have a finite amount of resources and media airtime to help women, it needs to address the things which can make the most difference. Falsely inflating the scale of a particular risk isn't going to help women in the long run.

[Graknorke]

Furthermore: why do men find women with big breasts so attractive? I'm a dude and I never got it. Those things are for feeding children, not feeding some creep's sexual intents. When there are full-grown men literally drooling over those, they are literally acting just like babies.

Oh no let's call the feelings police, somebody likes something you don't like.

[Neonivek]

There are many forms of Feminism smeeprocket some are extremely liberal and some are extremely conservative.

Mostly because everyone has an idea of how men and women can be equal.

Some forms of feminism do find issues with porn.... while others have no issue.

Some believe that male oriented media is bad in it of itself... while others have no idea (though the middle ground is that male oriented media is fine in an environment where female oriented media is abundant)

There are very few points that you can get all forms of Feminism to agree on.

no offense, but I don't need a lecture on feminism. It's sort of a big part of my life.

It isn't a lecture, just base straight up facts.

Then again... You were the one who challenged my credentials on knowing what feminism is.

[Kingbodz]

Furthermore: why do men find women with big breasts so attractive? I'm a dude and I never got it. Those things are for feeding children, not feeding some creep's sexual intents. When there are full-grown men literally drooling over those, they are literally acting just like babies.

Oh no let's call the feelings police, somebody likes something you don't like.

This makes you sound like a troll.

[Neonivek]

So lets get this topic back on track anyhow. Since in spite everything we have barely touched females in games.

[acetech09]

In other, completely unrelated to OP news... *ahem*

Recently I read something that reminded me of this thread. I'll try to pull up the article/quote when I get off work. A game designer was criticized for a lack of female characters. His rebuttal was based in a belief that even conservatively portrayed female characters would be sexualized by the predominately garage-dwelling teenage male demographic. The designer said that equal female representation was a "Nice Concept" but he didn't think it would any social impact, period.

That's an interesting take on it, and to certain demographics, it might hold some water. To a feminist, having a female protaganist might be seen as a symbol of empowerment, but to your average COD and WoW nerd, she'd be reduced to comic porn before the game's even released.

Edit: I have a feeling someone will argue that COD and WoW nerds aren't the majority of gamers. Please re-read my post. Also, if you don't know the kinds of people I'm talking about when I say 'COD and WoW' nerds, don't claim they don't exist.