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[Kingbodz]

The status quo is that things are improving smeeprocket.

Sounds like a pretty good status quo to maintain.

Most people don't care about these things unless it affects them directly though.

Believe it or not, most gamers actually care. They just don't care as much as a lot of people portray the issue.

They want women to stop looking stripperific... they don't see the subjugation of women when they see it... they just see something stupid and inane.

If it is getting better, which I question, it is only with significant backlash and the developers being dragged kicking and screaming down progress lane. These things don't just fix themselves.

I have found very few gamers that care about these issue, less than support the threats and doxxing of females who speak out, actually.

4chan is to blame for the doxxings because they think of women's rights like how politicians in the 1700s did. A big joke.

[LordBucket]

It's not just preferences. Sexist and sexualized depictions of women measurably decrease women's self-image and measurably lower men and women's opinions of womens' mental/physical capabilities.

That was one of the links I didn't read, but let me humor you and assume for the moment that you're factually correct.

So what?

What are you proposing be done? Do you suggest making these things illegal? Because if not, if you're simply saying "maybe these things aren't healthy" then ok, that's fine. But we do lots of unhealthy things. You may a well complain that people smoke and drink alcohol. Those probably aren't the healthiest things in the world either.

If women are being abducted at gunpoint and tried to chairs and compelled to consume media that has harmful effects on their psyche, ok, that's a problem. But if people are making content available that people want and choose for themselves...as I've said before, I'm not comfortable telling them they can't have it.

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!" But I'm not about to tell women they can't read that.

[smeeprocket]

It's a problem because it normalizes violence against women IRL. See: Any video talking about a woman speaking out about any kind of sexism in a game. The chances are pretty damn near 100% that they will receive terrible threats from "offended" male gamers. And they don't even make the games the woman is talking about!

Do you think violence against men in video games normalises violence against them IRL as well? I don't think women speaking out is necessarily limited to the topic of sexism in video games. It's more of a problem that most of society doesn't really consider a woman's opinion to be as valid as a man's, which is shitty, but not unique to gaming.

but it can be addressed specifically in all areas. Gaming is but one of many categories where this is a problem.

Another example is that nobody gave a shit about cosby raping all those women until a male comic started bringing it up in his routine.

It's harder to cover ALL areas at once than it is for some of us to target key areas where we think our lives could be improved.

[Caz]

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!"

Wat.

[Gentlefish]

The status quo is that things are improving smeeprocket.

Sounds like a pretty good status quo to maintain.

Most people don't care about these things unless it affects them directly though.

Believe it or not, most gamers actually care. They just don't care as much as a lot of people portray the issue.

They want women to stop looking stripperific... they don't see the subjugation of women when they see it... they just see something stupid and inane.

"things are improving" is not the status quo. That is a description of the change in status quo.

The status quo is still pretty shitty when it comes to anything videogames and women. You're right it's better.

But it's not what it should be.

Also the fact that they see stripper-women as "stupid and inane" instead of "wow that treats women, a whole 1/2 of humans shittily" is the problem.

It's a problem because it normalizes violence against women IRL. See: Any video talking about a woman speaking out about any kind of sexism in a game. The chances are pretty damn near 100% that they will receive terrible threats from "offended" male gamers. And they don't even make the games the woman is talking about!

Do you think violence against men in video games normalises violence against them IRL as well? I don't think women speaking out is necessarily limited to the topic of sexism in video games. It's more of a problem that most of society doesn't really consider a woman's opinion to be as valid as a man's, which is shitty, but not unique to gaming.

Do you think men are objectified in media as well? Men are always subjects. The main character for the vast majority of AAA games where you can't actually pick your gender, is male.


GDI guys.

It's not just preferences. Sexist and sexualized depictions of women measurably decrease women's self-image and measurably lower men and women's opinions of womens' mental/physical capabilities.

That was one of the links I didn't read, but let me humor you and assume for the moment that you're factually correct.

So what?

What are you proposing be done? Do you suggest making these things illegal? Because if not, if you're simply saying "maybe these things aren't healthy" then ok, that's fine. But we do lots of unhealthy things. You may a well complain that people smoke and drink alcohol. Those probably aren't the healthiest things in the world either.

If women are being abducted at gunpoint and tried to chairs and compelled to consume media that has harmful effects on their psyche, ok, that's a problem. But if people are making content available that people want and choose for themselves...as I've said before, I'm not comfortable telling them they can't have it.

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!" But I'm not about to tell women they can't read that.

They don't have to be tied down to force themselves to be exposed to it. They literally just have to watch TV or experience any media.

[Neonivek]

If it is getting better, which I question, it is only with significant backlash and the developers being dragged kicking and screaming down progress lane. These things don't just fix themselves.

I have found very few gamers that care about these issue, less than support the threats and doxxing of females who speak out, actually.

Actually in this case it had nothing to do with that. It is because people's tastes have changed and even those who once liked the sexualization are so turned off of it by now that it no longer "services" the average gamer.

As well because of the casual gamer boom it means most people who are coming into gaming are coming from movies. So the previous sexualization is more out of place AND because videogames are being accepted under household names they are under the standards we put movies and tvshows.

We got change not through ranting, raving, and throwing chairs.

We actually got it just by playing games.

"things are improving" is not the status quo. That is a description of the change in status quo.

Instantaneous velocity pufferfish.

Also the fact that they see stripper-women as "stupid and inane" instead of "wow that treats women, a whole 1/2 of humans shittily" is the problem

I actually think the "stupid and inane" one as far superior. You can argue until your face is blue whether or not a character is truly sexist.

But dumb? you can argue that on the fly.

[Kingbodz]

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!"

Wat.

Grocery Romance novels are trash in book form.

[smeeprocket]

It's not just preferences. Sexist and sexualized depictions of women measurably decrease women's self-image and measurably lower men and women's opinions of womens' mental/physical capabilities.

That was one of the links I didn't read, but let me humor you and assume for the moment that you're factually correct.

So what?

What are you proposing be done? Do you suggest making these things illegal? Because if not, if you're simply saying "maybe these things aren't healthy" then ok, that's fine. But we do lots of unhealthy things. You may a well complain that people smoke and drink alcohol. Those probably aren't the healthiest things in the world either.

If women are being abducted at gunpoint and tried to chairs and compelled to consume media that has harmful effects on their psyche, ok, that's a problem. But if people are making content available that people want and choose for themselves...as I've said before, I'm not comfortable telling them they can't have it.

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!" But I'm not about to tell women they can't read that.

It's silly to keep apologizing for these things and then making extreme suggestions like that's what we are getting at.


There is stuff in between censorship and ignoring the problem. Which I mentioned in a previous post.

Vote with your pocketbook, speak up. Make it clear that his is not okay. Speak up against the kind of people that want to hurt women that speak out.

Censorship is not required when the community itself can act in a moral way to stem the problem.

[Caz]

but it can be addressed specifically in all areas. Gaming is but one of many categories where this is a problem.

What do you mean specifically? What's the point? The cure for the problem in all areas is basically the same and involves a shift in attitude about women for most of the population. Which is happening, to be fair.

[smeeprocket]

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!"

Wat.

Grocery Romance novels are trash in book form.

huh? I didn't realize there is ever a time when it is the victim's fault. lol

[smeeprocket]

but it can be addressed specifically in all areas. Gaming is but one of many categories where this is a problem.

What do you mean specifically? What's the point? The cure for the problem in all areas is basically the same and involves a shift in attitude about women for most of the population. Which is happening, to be fair.

no, no it's not at all. Things are more dangerous for people who speak out now than ever. And feminism is far more vilified.

My experience is that is is definitely not getting better.

Either way, you can shift the opinions one area at a time, it's far too big a problem to just try and move everyone all at once. the individual issues need to be discussed.

[Kingbodz]

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!"

Wat.

Grocery Romance novels are trash in book form.

huh? I didn't realize there is ever a time when it is the victim's fault. lol

When did I imply that rape is the victim's fault? Or are you quoting Lord Bucket?

[smeeprocket]

Any of you ever read a mass consumption grocery-store-checkout romance novel? A lot of those are probably psychologically unhealthy too. I read one once and it was basically 200 pages of "I get to be raped and it's not my fault!"

Wat.

Grocery Romance novels are trash in book form.

huh? I didn't realize there is ever a time when it is the victim's fault. lol

When did I imply that rape is the victim's fault? Or are you quoting Lord Bucket?

quoting LordBucket, sorry.

[Neonivek]

but it can be addressed specifically in all areas. Gaming is but one of many categories where this is a problem.

What do you mean specifically? What's the point? The cure for the problem in all areas is basically the same and involves a shift in attitude about women for most of the population. Which is happening, to be fair.

no, no it's not at all. Things are more dangerous for people who speak out now than ever. And feminism is far more vilified.

My experience is that is is definitely not getting better.

Either way, you can shift the opinions one area at a time, it's far too big a problem to just try and move everyone all at once. the individual issues need to be discussed.

Feminism is not a thing that really needs to be protected nor something that is really a "measure of goodness".

It is just one political viewpoint.

Most people agree with many of the tenants of feminism but disagrees with many of the finer points.

And frankly... Feminism, the full ideology really isn't for everyone. Feminism has always been notorious for offputting people and being antagonistic towards new people.

[smeeprocket]

but it can be addressed specifically in all areas. Gaming is but one of many categories where this is a problem.

What do you mean specifically? What's the point? The cure for the problem in all areas is basically the same and involves a shift in attitude about women for most of the population. Which is happening, to be fair.

no, no it's not at all. Things are more dangerous for people who speak out now than ever. And feminism is far more vilified.

My experience is that is is definitely not getting better.

Either way, you can shift the opinions one area at a time, it's far too big a problem to just try and move everyone all at once. the individual issues need to be discussed.

Feminism is not a thing that really needs to be protected nor something that is really a "measure of goodness".

It is just one political viewpoint.

Most people agree with many of the tenants of feminism but disagrees with many of the finer points.

civil rights and the fight for equality is not a political view, tyvm. My basic human rights does not come down to politics.