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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 165604 times)

Shinotsa

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2014, 06:38:22 pm »

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Not my point.

My point is it's hypocritical to whine that it's unfair women are underrepresented in game development, but not say a damn thing about men being overrepresented in all 10 of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

It's a societal thing - deadly jobs are seen as manly. And last I checked I had male genitalia and I'm "whining" about inequality
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Flying Dice

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2014, 06:38:28 pm »

http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet%28National%29.pdf

A quick reference to why violence against women by men in video games is unsettling and troublesome.

This is real, this is rarely actually addressed, and it should be handled in fiction with kid gloves.
A lot of studies find gender-symmetry in domestic violence rates, but assymetry in injuries and police action. The assymetry (women being injured a lot more) is best explained purely by physical strength differences rather than belief differences: women and men hit their partners just as often, but men do more damage. e.g. there is no less violence in lesbian relationships (in fact it's slightly higher), and bisexual women actually report more assaults by their female partners than their male partners. These are real statistics, as are yours, it's not either/or, it's about looking at the big picture and not picking out just the survey responses from women - that's plain cherry picking.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V71-Straus_Thirty-Years-Denying-Evidence-PV_10.pdf

The answer of course is to moderate how men treat women: I'd argue that the traditional "don't hit girls" that every boy is taught from a young age attempts to do this, rather than being intended to "harm" women somehow. I know girls who used to hit boys all the time in grade school because they knew boys wouldn't hit back because of the ingrained conditioning.

Here's a source about female sexual aggression:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/
It turns out using the same survey questions on male college students etc, as female ones gives roughly the same data on which gender is most "rapey":

Quote
Anderson 1998 – Survey of 461 women (general population) 43% secured sexual acts by verbal coercion; 36.5% by getting a man intoxicated; threat of force – 27.8%, use of force – 20%;  By threatening a man with a weapon – 8.9%.

Anderson, 1999 – 43% of college women admitted to using verbal or physical pressure to obtain sex

Fiebert & Tucci (1998) – 70% of male college students reported experiencing some type of harassment, pressuring, or coercion by a female

Hannon, Kunetz, Van Laar, & Williams (1996) – 10% of surveyed male college students reported experiencing a completed sexual assault perpetrated by a female intimate partner

Hogben, Byrne & Hamburger (1996) Lifetime prevalence of 24% for women having made a man engage in sexual activity against his will.

Larimer, Lydum, Anderson and Turner (1999) 20.7% of male respondents had been the recipients of unwanted sexual contact in the year prior to the survey. Verbal pressure was experienced by 7.9%, physical force by 0.6% and intoxication through alcohol or drugs by 3.6%.

Sisco, Becker, Figueredo, & Sales (2005) – A third of women reported that they had verbally harassed a person or pressured the person into performing a sexual act that the person felt uncomfortable with while roughly one in ten performed a coercive sexual act that would be considered illegal (e.g., sexual acts that involved a person who was unable or unwilling to consent)

So, the comparable survey results are pretty much gender neutral, and differences in rates can be largely explained by ability to get away with it (physical strength differences) rather than some inculcated male-only cultural artefact.

...

You're joking. Are you really trying to say college age women, 1 in 4 of which will be raped and almost none of which will be taken seriously (3% of reported rapes, and most aren't reported) are convicted.

Men do get raped, women do rape, but it's just insulting to try and argue that the epidemic of rape in college is perpetrated by women against men instead of the reverse. Especially in a society where we already try to force the victims to be quiet.

I've been following this thread without posting for a while, and this response, I think, pinpoints the thing that's been bothering me. Reelya provided a link to a source which references a substantial amount peer-reviewed work based on empirical research which suggests that sexual violence is not dramatically skewed against one gender (at least among the surveyed populations). I know that it can sometimes be difficult to do proper research if you aren't on a university net, so I did a bit of a read-through and the articles I searched for were published in reputable journals and in some cases were very heavily cited in other academic work. They wouldn't have been published if the research methods weren't unbiased and as free of error as possible.

Your response was... I'm honestly not sure. Another evasion, no counterpoint with evidence of your own, and a claim that empirical research based on confidential survey data is "insulting". No offense, but that's more like the behavior I'd expect from a creationist responding to research on climate change.

When we argue like rational people, we provide evidence for our views and express our thoughts clearly. Dodging questions, cherrypicking what you want to respond to, and acting offended (I've called it that, but I don't really have a clue whether you're actually offended or just pretending to avoid responding directly) when someone brings up research that doesn't fit your worldview? Those aren't conducive to a good debate. It's not bullying or whatever to ask you respond to questions instead of dodging them, or to support your opinions with peer-reviewed research or other reputable sources of data when the people you're arguing with are also doing so, and it's helpful to the argument.

Nobody here is your enemy or trying to attack you.

--

I've got basically zero interest in actually arguing this issue again, almost less than I do in arguing over U.S. politics. Plus it's vacation and I'm dog-tired.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2014, 06:39:29 pm »

Men do get raped, women do rape, but it's just insulting to try and argue that the epidemic of rape in college is perpetrated by women against men instead of the reverse. Especially in a society where we already try to force the victims to be quiet.

I never said "instead of men", but you can't just accept one set of survey results and ignore the exact same surveys when applied to the "wrong" gender. Both genders are engaging in largely the same behaviors, this is what all the surveys which have actually asked the question support.

no they are not. That is not at all the case. Women are getting raped in record numbers. This is not happening in those numbers to men. Stop trying to trivialize the issue by acting like it's both sides doing the same thing. It's not like I don't want to give a voice to male rape victims also, in fact the response to Shia LeBeouf admitting to being raped by a woman by people like Piers Morgan enraged and disgusted me. But this is very much a male on female problem in college.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2014, 06:40:07 pm »

Oh hi guys, nice convo here don't mind if I PTW and enter into one of these big ol' walls of text later

*EDIT
Wow, 5 ninjas already you guys love your gurl vidya convos

Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2014, 06:40:27 pm »


Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Can I suggest laying off the sarcasm? It doesn't exactly assist a debate when you're being snide about things.

Anyway, posting to watch this thread burn, just like all the others.

I still don't understand this thing where I am expected to respond to all inflammatory posts with measured calm, but the people calling me out say nothing about the content of the post I spend to.

It is usually done in order not to plunge the topic into darkness.

As well being kind to others, even those who are not kind to you, is always a good idea.
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Gentlefish

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2014, 06:42:29 pm »

Here's a few articles about female developers inside the industry?

There's totally no problems guys see everything's fine.

smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2014, 06:43:21 pm »

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

http://www.clevelandrapecrisis.org/resources/statistics/sexual-violence-on-college-campuses

http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/statistics.html

I'm doing this quickly because the conversation is moving quickly. Every other outlet will tell you very clearly that this is male on female. The fact that physical strength varies is very much part of the problem. It is not impossible for a woman to rape a man, but it is much less likely, trivializing that issue denies where the problem often lies.

Men are stronger, men have a  system of oppression to keep women silent, and this has nothing directly to do with women in video games
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2014, 06:43:39 pm »

How much unattractive or asexual males are there in media? Looks and sex appeal apply to both sexes, I just feel it's fair for that sex to make the decision.

How many unattractive or asexual people have you seen in popular media? In Game of Thrones they needed to find an ugly, mannish woman to play Brienne, and this is what they came up with:

Spoiler: Gwendoline Christie (click to show/hide)

Maybe not everybody's "very definition of beauty", but certainly not unattractive. Since every actor/actress needs to be visually appealing by the very nature of their job, I don't think it's the fault of the writers that their pool of talent ranges from "above average" to "god/goddess".

Spoiler: Jonah Hill (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Josh Gad (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: John Goodman (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Steve Buscemi (click to show/hide)

I'd say these guys vary from "maybe not everybody's 'very definition of beauty'" to certainly unattractive. And that's just off the top of my head.
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Graknorke

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2014, 06:43:59 pm »

no they are not. That is not at all the case. Women are getting raped in record numbers. This is not happening in those numbers to men. Stop trying to trivialize the issue by acting like it's both sides doing the same thing. It's not like I don't want to give a voice to male rape victims also, in fact the response to Shia LeBeouf admitting to being raped by a woman by people like Piers Morgan enraged and disgusted me. But this is very much a male on female problem in college.
And what of Reelya's sources?
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Gentlefish

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2014, 06:45:25 pm »

How much unattractive or asexual males are there in media? Looks and sex appeal apply to both sexes, I just feel it's fair for that sex to make the decision.

How many unattractive or asexual people have you seen in popular media? In Game of Thrones they needed to find an ugly, mannish woman to play Brienne, and this is what they came up with:

Spoiler: Gwendoline Christie (click to show/hide)

Maybe not everybody's "very definition of beauty", but certainly not unattractive. Since every actor/actress needs to be visually appealing by the very nature of their job, I don't think it's the fault of the writers that their pool of talent ranges from "above average" to "god/goddess".

Spoiler: Jonah Hill (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Josh Gad (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: John Goodman (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Steve Buscemi (click to show/hide)

I'd say these guys vary from "maybe not everybody's 'very definition of beauty'" to certainly unattractive. And that's just off the top of my head.

Okay, and I can probably find you dozens of movies where the "Nice GuyTM" gets the girl. Especially in the case of Jonah Hill.

smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2014, 06:45:29 pm »

no they are not. That is not at all the case. Women are getting raped in record numbers. This is not happening in those numbers to men. Stop trying to trivialize the issue by acting like it's both sides doing the same thing. It's not like I don't want to give a voice to male rape victims also, in fact the response to Shia LeBeouf admitting to being raped by a woman by people like Piers Morgan enraged and disgusted me. But this is very much a male on female problem in college.
And what of Reelya's sources?

Here's a wiki article on the matter, as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_rape
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2014, 06:46:54 pm »

How much unattractive or asexual males are there in media? Looks and sex appeal apply to both sexes, I just feel it's fair for that sex to make the decision.

How many unattractive or asexual people have you seen in popular media? In Game of Thrones they needed to find an ugly, mannish woman to play Brienne, and this is what they came up with:

Spoiler: Gwendoline Christie (click to show/hide)

Maybe not everybody's "very definition of beauty", but certainly not unattractive. Since every actor/actress needs to be visually appealing by the very nature of their job, I don't think it's the fault of the writers that their pool of talent ranges from "above average" to "god/goddess".

Spoiler: Jonah Hill (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Josh Gad (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: John Goodman (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Steve Buscemi (click to show/hide)

I'd say these guys vary from "maybe not everybody's 'very definition of beauty'" to certainly unattractive. And that's just off the top of my head.

Okay, and I can probably find you dozens of movies where the "Nice GuyTM" gets the girl. Especially in the case of Jonah Hill.

http://hellogiggles.com/snl-one-dimensional-female-characters
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Shinotsa

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2014, 06:47:03 pm »

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

http://www.clevelandrapecrisis.org/resources/statistics/sexual-violence-on-college-campuses

http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/statistics.html

I'm doing this quickly because the conversation is moving quickly. Every other outlet will tell you very clearly that this is male on female. The fact that physical strength varies is very much part of the problem. It is not impossible for a woman to rape a man, but it is much less likely, trivializing that issue denies where the problem often lies.

Men are stronger, men have a  system of oppression to keep women silent, and this has nothing directly to do with women in video games

I want to contest the strength issue. Rape, at least in its more common form, is much more psychological subjugation than physical. Once again, societal norms vs individual desires.
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Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2014, 06:48:49 pm »

Can we please at least give a synopsis for links? it cuts down on the reading

Edited to remove complaining.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 06:50:37 pm by Neonivek »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2014, 06:50:08 pm »

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

http://www.clevelandrapecrisis.org/resources/statistics/sexual-violence-on-college-campuses

http://www.slc.edu/offices-services/security/assault/statistics.html

I'm doing this quickly because the conversation is moving quickly. Every other outlet will tell you very clearly that this is male on female. The fact that physical strength varies is very much part of the problem. It is not impossible for a woman to rape a man, but it is much less likely, trivializing that issue denies where the problem often lies.

Men are stronger, men have a  system of oppression to keep women silent, and this has nothing directly to do with women in video games

I want to contest the strength issue. Rape, at least in its more common form, is much more psychological subjugation than physical. Once again, societal norms vs individual desires.

It can very much be both, actually. And many instances of women being raped do not fit into what society perceives as rape because it is not "forcible" rape. I have read accounts of women who froze in fear, and no physical force was used.

But men still do the majority of raping and it is still very much a male on female problem.

This, as I said, doesn't at all mean that it doesn't happen the other way around or in female on female, and male on male instances. I DO NOT want to trivialize these. But I feel like the argument that women totally do it to underscores the numbers at which men are doing it and the efforts the system puts into keeping these men protected.
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