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[Shinotsa]

How much unattractive or asexual males are there in media? Looks and sex appeal apply to both sexes, I just feel it's fair for that sex to make the decision.

How many unattractive or asexual people have you seen in popular media? In Game of Thrones they needed to find an ugly, mannish woman to play Brienne, and this is what they came up with:

Spoiler: Gwendoline Christie (click to show/hide)

Maybe not everybody's "very definition of beauty", but certainly not unattractive. Since every actor/actress needs to be visually appealing by the very nature of their job, I don't think it's the fault of the writers that their pool of talent ranges from "above average" to "god/goddess".

Thank you for providing an example of my point

[Neonivek]

I think it would be worthwhile if there was some research as to what effect showing DV in a game from an NPC had on the viewer's perception of domestic violence in real life. If it makes it less socially acceptable, then that could in fact be a good thing. It would probably correlate heavily with the effects of showing it in a movie, as long as it's not a player-initiated action or rewarded.

They have done a lot of studies. This just goes back to the old "Does violence in videogames make you a more violent person" argument...

Except now it is "Does sexism in videogames make you more sexist?"

And last time they found nothing.

[BurnedToast]

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

[smeeprocket]

Are you saying it is because women in that situation feel that it is normal to be abused?

Because, while that is true... it should be stated that is because in their mental states they intentionally warp their perceptions in order to normalize the situation.

As well when you look at the "Violence against women" charts... You will see that videogames, movies, and television is not a contributing factor.

What the hell are you going on about? Women who feel abused don't feel it's normal to be abused.

No, it is pretty common. Women who stay in abusive relationships will do that.

Often shoving the blame of their own abuse onto themselves.

This is a lot of words to say "I don't think this is a problem, so shut up."

I don't know smeeprocket... People are allowed to have different viewpoints. LordBucket isn't saying abuse doesn't happen or that sexism doesn't happen.

LordBucket is saying that the existence of a gender discrepancy in it of itself does not imply sexism.

Women in abusive relationships will end up blaming themselves for the abuse often enough, but that does not mean that they feel it is normal or romanticize it.

That's not what he's saying. What he is saying is "women just want to complain. You already have what you want, stop complaining. Tell us what you want then. Also, what you want is already there and if you don't like what you get play a different game"

[smjjames]

How much unattractive or asexual males are there in media? Looks and sex appeal apply to both sexes, I just feel it's fair for that sex to make the decision.

How many unattractive or asexual people have you seen in popular media? In Game of Thrones they needed to find an ugly, mannish woman to play Brienne, and this is what they came up with:

Spoiler: Gwendoline Christie (click to show/hide)

Maybe not everybody's "very definition of beauty", but certainly not unattractive. Since every actor/actress needs to be visually appealing by the very nature of their job, I don't think it's the fault of the writers that their pool of talent ranges from "above average" to "god/goddess".

They can also get around that by using makeup, prothsetics, masks, or even digital effects.

[smeeprocket]

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

[smeeprocket]

I think it would be worthwhile if there was some research as to what effect showing DV in a game from an NPC had on the viewer's perception of domestic violence in real life. If it makes it less socially acceptable, then that could in fact be a good thing. It would probably correlate heavily with the effects of showing it in a movie, as long as it's not a player-initiated action or rewarded.

They have done a lot of studies. This just goes back to the old "Does violence in videogames make you a more violent person" argument...

Except now it is "Does sexism in videogames make you more sexist?"

And last time they found nothing.

Actually, someone linked a study earlier in the discussion that shows it does make men more sexist and women feel worse about themselves.

[BurnedToast]

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Not my point.

My point is it's hypocritical to whine that it's unfair women are underrepresented in game development, but not say a damn thing about men being overrepresented in all 10 of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

[Neonivek]

Are you saying it is because women in that situation feel that it is normal to be abused?

Because, while that is true... it should be stated that is because in their mental states they intentionally warp their perceptions in order to normalize the situation.

As well when you look at the "Violence against women" charts... You will see that videogames, movies, and television is not a contributing factor.

What the hell are you going on about? Women who feel abused don't feel it's normal to be abused.

No, it is pretty common. Women who stay in abusive relationships will do that.

Often shoving the blame of their own abuse onto themselves.

This is a lot of words to say "I don't think this is a problem, so shut up."

I don't know smeeprocket... People are allowed to have different viewpoints. LordBucket isn't saying abuse doesn't happen or that sexism doesn't happen.

LordBucket is saying that the existence of a gender discrepancy in it of itself does not imply sexism.

Women in abusive relationships will end up blaming themselves for the abuse often enough, but that does not mean that they feel it is normal or romanticize it.

That's not what he's saying. What he is saying is "women just want to complain. You already have what you want, stop complaining. Tell us what you want then. Also, what you want is already there and if you don't like what you get play a different game"

The women in abuse do not romanticize it... everyone else does and then the abused women imagines abuse the way you project onto her.

As for Lord Bucket... No. LordBucket really doesn't mean that.

And eliminating the "women just want to complain" part... Lets just say everything you said (s)he said was true... What is wrong with that? Why does LordBucket need to agree with you?

---

As for the 10 deadliest Jobs. Some of those aren't things you EXACTLY train to be they are kind of dynasty jobs.

No amount of feminism or egalitarianism would fix some of them.

[GiglameshDespair]

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Can I suggest laying off the sarcasm? It doesn't exactly assist a debate when you're being snide about things.



Anyway, posting to watch this thread burn, just like all the others.

[itisnotlogical]

I think it would be worthwhile if there was some research as to what effect showing DV in a game from an NPC had on the viewer's perception of domestic violence in real life. If it makes it less socially acceptable, then that could in fact be a good thing. It would probably correlate heavily with the effects of showing it in a movie, as long as it's not a player-initiated action or rewarded.

This is so incredibly caught up in context that there's no one way to "show domestic violence in a video game". Does the player do it or an NPC? Is the player in control? Is the player able to prevent it? How is the abuser portrayed? What happens to the victim? Does the player even see what happens after the incident? These are all questions that are heavily dependent on individual games, so there's no way to do research on it that would show anything relating to actual video games.

[Ogdibus]

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Not my point.

My point is it's hypocritical to whine that it's unfair women are underrepresented in game development, but not say a damn thing about men being overrepresented in all 10 of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Have you worked in any of those industries?   I have, and the few women that do face a lot of hostility.

[smeeprocket]

If we could get a representative population of women in programming this would really be a non-issue. As it stands game design and programming is a mainly male dominated (I want to say somewhere around 90% from what I've heard in the past but don't have sources) field and if we had something near a 50/50 split then women could sexualize themselves as much as they want, much as it's their right to be a part of other forms of sexualized media.

Until we get to that point, however, we have to accept that gaming is an industry dominated by younger male consumers, and that companies will cater to their wants. We can't nitpick and say that this or that isn't equal when society gives an incentive to promote inequality

Maybe while we're at it we can get women better represented in the following jobs too:

Loggers
Fishers
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Roofers
Refuse collectors (garbage men)
Miners
Truck drivers
Farmers/ranchers
Electric power line workers

All 10 are extremely male dominated jobs.  Wonder why we don't hear about how unfair it is women don't represent 50% of the workers there too?

....oh right, because that's a list of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Not my point.

My point is it's hypocritical to whine that women are underrepresented in game development, but not say a damn thing about men be overrepresented in all 10 of the 10 deadliest jobs in the country.

it's not hypocritical, it's called making an argument where there isn't one. We'd like representation in all fields but this is not a roofer's forum, this is a gaming forum. You entire argument is completely outside the point. DO we have to argue about every single job if we want representation in one job? Like we can't have a discussion about one without promising you repeatedly that we will totally do the dangerous jobs also?

[Reelya]

Men do get raped, women do rape, but it's just insulting to try and argue that the epidemic of rape in college is perpetrated by women against men instead of the reverse. Especially in a society where we already try to force the victims to be quiet.

I never said "instead of men", but you can't just accept one set of survey results and ignore the exact same surveys when applied to the "wrong" gender. Both genders are engaging in largely the same behaviors, this is what all the surveys which have actually asked the question support.

Male DV and rape victims have even more stigma than female victims, this is a well known phenomena across the board. So saying "especially" because victims can't come forward is disingenious when you realize reporting rates for male victims are substatially lower.

[smeeprocket]

Right, it's a conspiracy, women are ignoring those jobs because they WANT men to have the deadly jobs. It's a feminazi conspiracy to get all the good jobs and leave all the deadly jobs to men. It's been our plot all along. How did you find out?

Can I suggest laying off the sarcasm? It doesn't exactly assist a debate when you're being snide about things.



Anyway, posting to watch this thread burn, just like all the others.

I still don't understand this thing where I am expected to respond to all inflammatory posts with measured calm, but the people calling me out say nothing about the content of the post I spend to.