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[smeeprocket]

Well it is anecdotal but look at all the "Chose your protagonist" games.

Always your character is this sort of non-entity you can project into or with such a variable personality that they feel like they have no real personality to match.

There is something gained by having a character versus "chose your own protagonist"

yea it is anecdotal.

Why not just have more female protagonists. Women have to deal with having almost all male protagonists, are you saying it would be unbearable for men to have to suffer the same thing? You can see why it is an issue for us then?

Also, there are plenty of games that have multiple characters and give them personalities, I will refer back to borderlands because really, that is the best game series in the history of ever.

Just read a few YesAllMen stuff...

People used "Notallmen" as a sort of excuse for their own sexism.

I'm pretty sure the tag was YesAllWomen.

hush, it was total misandry. Much oppression was had.

[Reelya]

What do you mean gender selection leads to character weak protagonists? Are you saying to have women you have to sacrifice character? Or that having an option means there will be no character? Why is that exactly?

What Neonivek said. You either have a "make your own" protagonist system OR you have fully-fleshed out characters with a background. The ideal balance would be two fully-fledged characters to choose from. But even then there will be a slight disconnect as the game's story will have points which are generic enough to fit either protagonist. It'll be close but the plot will still suffer a bit: you're always going to have the best intergration of plot and character when it's all built around 1 specific person.

[Elephant Parade]

You are effectively washing your hands of a problem that you have the power to shut down.

That's not what I'm trying to do at all. I'm just saying that, while one should always stop the problems they can, it's not one's job to campaign for something that they couldn't be all that effective at stopping. I'm not going to campaign against e-abuse 24/7, and it's not fair to expect me to, any more than it is to expect you to campaign against homelessness 24/7.

That's kind of a questionable example, of course, since we can definitely do a bit more to stop e-abuse than homelessness.

[smeeprocket]

What do you mean gender selection leads to character weak protagonists? Are you saying to have women you have to sacrifice character? Or that having an option means there will be no character? Why is that exactly?

What Neonivek said. You either have a "make your own" protagonist system OR you have fully-fleshed out characters with a background. The ideal balance would be two fully-fledged characters to choose from. But even then there will be a slight disconnect as the game's story will have points which are generic enough to fit either protagonist. It'll be close but the plot will still suffer a bit: you're always going to have the best intergration of plot and character when it's all built around 1 specific person.

or we could have more female protagonists who are fully fleshed out.

Make more games have a female protagonist. Like I said.

[Neonivek]

yea it is anecdotal.

Why not just have more female protagonists. Women have to deal with having almost all male protagonists, are you saying it would be unbearable for men to have to suffer the same thing? You can see why it is an issue for us then?

Also, there are plenty of games that have multiple characters and give them personalities, I will refer back to borderlands because really, that is the best game series in the history of ever.

Mostly I want "more selectable gender" games... off the table, except in the case of blank characterless protagonists, as a solution as they are not gender equality... as they aren't characters and we want more and better female characters.

As for Borderlands... everyone has the same personality. Presequel is the first game to actually give them different personalities.

You could exchange their bodies and you couldn't tell the difference and Borderlands 2 actually proves it.

[smeeprocket]

yea it is anecdotal.

Why not just have more female protagonists. Women have to deal with having almost all male protagonists, are you saying it would be unbearable for men to have to suffer the same thing? You can see why it is an issue for us then?

Also, there are plenty of games that have multiple characters and give them personalities, I will refer back to borderlands because really, that is the best game series in the history of ever.

Mostly I want "more selectable gender" games... off the table, except in the case of blank characterless protagonists, as a solution as they are not gender equality... as they aren't characters and we want more and better female characters.

As for Borderlands... everyone has the same personality. Presequel is the first game to actually give them different personalities.

You could exchange their bodies and you couldn't tell the difference and Borderlands 2 actually proves it.

yea they didn't talk until presequel, but 2 actually fleshed out the characters in 1.

But you haven't addressed my suggestion to just make more of the protagonists female. Request it. Encourage it, push for it. As a gamer male, the devs care about what you have to say.

[Neonivek]

We do need more female protagonists.

They shouldn't be as worried making female characters.

I know I am afraid to write female characters but you know what I do whenever I am about to write one when I am afraid someone might find the character sexist?

I just reverse their attributes and find that... there is no way to do a female character in a way no one will find issues with.

I love the demeur elegant diplomatic princess with a pure heart and I like the cold battle hardened warrior.

gamers as a whole only care if the female character is awesome.

They polled kids about Legend of Korra and you know what they found? Boys didn't care that Korra was a girl so long as she could kick butt.

Also they REALLY got to stop caring that their protagonist is a woman. Seriously... we have enough "Woman needs to find the strength inside" protagonists. We need a Nancy Drew or a Wonderwoman.

Or heck Rosella... "My father is dying... don't worry I'll rescue a kingdom to say you... Also I am a master archer, know several instruments, and am quite adept at many skills". (and before someone complains. Her game is a reference to the first game)

[smeeprocket]

no we don't have enough of those women. I don't even know what you are talking about, those protagonists are rare.

We have a lot of damsels in distress, as far as I can tell. And 1 dimensional female sidekicks. Overflowing with those.

Maybe the problem with you writing about women is you don't understand being a woman. A lot of times, the perspective you need resides within females. Hence the problem with almost entirely male devs.

Also this whole excuse that there's no way to not offend people... yes -someone- is going to be offended somewhere, but if you take a night to actually do some research on what empowers women and what promotes equality, you will do fine.

[Neonivek]

What are you talking about ALL female protagonist right now are that...

Lara Croft, Samus, Zelda, last of us, Bioshock unlimited...

Why can't a female character just be awesome without a question that they were always awesome, intelligent, adventurous, brave, strong?

Why is their default state always weak and helpless?

---

Nathan Drake didn't have to learn he was actually strong the entire time... Lara Croft did.

...

And this isn't getting into the common plotline "Women aren't meant for fighting. Being a warrior somehow is depriving her of her innocence of femininity"

And the only time I ever seen the "fighting makes me less of a woman" plotline done right was in Inuyasha... because she was so diligent she had no freetime and she never could think in terms of romance or just trying to look good or just doing things she likes. It really did deprive her of being a woman, as it would deprive someone of being a man.

[alexandertnt]

I'm just popping in to say that "females in games" and "female programmers" are, IMO, two different, unrelated issues. Programmers usually just program what they are told to program by the people who design the game systems/characters. Would you trust the programmers in your company to come up with a compelling story?

[Neonivek]

Well if we are just talking about females in games... we have TONS!

[Fniff]

This topic is a loop. We always come back to the same points.
After all the threads that's been made on this subject, the two bits of useful information I've come up with is "We probably need more diversity in gaming protagonists, which is probably best accomplished by getting more female devs in... Somehow" and "Gosh, people like talking about spaceship engines".
...
You know, let's combine the two. How about a game about running a really detailed spaceship in a highly dangerous environment (Do you use hydrogen for your fuel or oxygen? If you use hydrogen, it's more efficient but if there's a leak you won't know it...) where the protagonist is a lady? It'd be like Kerbal Space Program crossed with Alien Isolation.

[Neonivek]

because we need to get by female representation first

I actually do want to talk about the female characters we currently have in games.

Exploring what they are trying to do with them, what works, and what doesn't.

But we need to kill the "We need more women with better representation" line of conversation dead before we can actually look at women in videogames.

[Quartz_Mace]

We do need more female protagonists.

They shouldn't be as worried making female characters.

I know I am afraid to write female characters but you know what I do whenever I am about to write one when I am afraid someone might find the character sexist?

I just reverse their attributes and find that... there is no way to do a female character in a way no one will find issues with.

I love the demeur elegant diplomatic princess with a pure heart and I like the cold battle hardened warrior.

gamers as a whole only care if the female character is awesome.

They polled kids about Legend of Korra and you know what they found? Boys didn't care that Korra was a girl so long as she could kick butt.

Also they REALLY got to stop caring that their protagonist is a woman. Seriously... we have enough "Woman needs to find the strength inside" protagonists. We need a Nancy Drew or a Wonderwoman.

Or heck Rosella... "My father is dying... don't worry I'll rescue a kingdom to say you... Also I am a master archer, know several instruments, and am quite adept at many skills". (and before someone complains. Her game is a reference to the first game)

Honestly, I think we could use a few more "Human needs to find strength inside protagonists." This includes men too, not just women(women not so much because I think we have quite a few). I'm so sick of all the male characters having the strength the whole time. They'd need to find it inside too. I'd also like some already hardened female characters becuase God knows in a world of sexism a woman has to try harder than a man to accomplish the same he could, but only because of that sexist environment. We are all equal and the world needs to start acting like it.

[Neonivek]

You are right Quartz Mace, male representation leaves a LOT to be desired too.

Though I am trying to focus on female representation in general.