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[Virtz]

yea that's one of the obtuse, frustrating posts.

"This is a problem" "Nope, everything is perfectly fine, nothing to see here" "let me show you all the examples of this problem" "what problem? there is no problem"

It's rather insulting.

"I don't see the thing you're talking about in these examples." "Well, that's cause you're a man, you can't make the judgement. Also, there's no such thing as sexism against men."

Yes, it's frustrating when people don't immediately agree with your questionable views. And I say this as someone who would agree that women are under-represented in video games.

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

I'd also be a proponent of more strong and less sexualized female protagonists. More Brienne of Tarth, less Lara Croft. Like unless there's magic or futuristic technology to even out physical differences, I find a strong protagonist more believable in a violent scenario, regardless of gender. And that's why I strongly dislike anime games with teenage protagonists. I'm not buying for a second that these lanky twerps can do things adults failed at.

I've already linked the gender disparity in games twice now, you are wrong. there are very few female protagonists.

I was citing the way you respond to people. I didn't say anything on the subject. I don't know much about that. All I know is I can't think of a single pre-written homosexual protagonist in a video game and I don't really care all that much.

And falling back on the "oh you're just playing the gender card" is rather weak.

I don't understand the beneficial sexism comment but misandry is a myth. You don't have a power structure in place to back up and reinforce the supposed sexism. It's like saying you can be racist against white people. It's absurd.

You, perhaps, do not perceive it as sexist. Okay, fine. But you are not in a position to make that judgement because it is not exploitative of your gender.

I was really just summing up what you've said in this thread.

Much earlier in this thread I already mentioned the idea that people can be very strong without appearing massive, and in the past most warriors were fairly ordinary in size despite being strong due to the lack of abundant food. A longbowman was immensely strong to draw back his bow, but would not be very bulky if he had been on a long campaign without much food despite still being able to use his bow (see Agincourt).

A physically unimposing warrior was not unusual in many periods of history.

I ain't saying they should be Gears of War style mutated roid monkeys. They just shouldn't be overly lacking physically compared to their peers that manage to achieve less.

Also, a troop among a group of soldiers that relies on the support of other troop types isn't exactly video game protagonist material. The protagonist of a violent video game usually isn't a soldier, they're the soldier that killed a hundred others and lived to tell about it.

[Caz]

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

Oh, this is true. There's a real lack of good female antagonists. Though it's not a videogame, it was nice to see a ruthless female antagonist in the last season of The Legend of Korra. (But that show pretty much ticks all the nice equality boxes anyway. Dark-skinned, female, LGBT protagonist? Yay!)

I can't think of many games that have similar quality antagonists, though. Maybe because women are seen as less powerful, less competitive, less aggressive etc, which are all common traits that leads to a character turning into the Big Bad.

[smjjames]

In an attempt to continue an earlier line of discussion that didn't actually get answered, smeeprocket, I wonder what female character in gaming you think would be empowering for women.

I might tentatively say Laura Croft, but I say tentatively because I haven't played those games and so I don't know much about that character.

[Reelya]

Although I'd say they're more under-represented in negative roles than positive ones. It's not uncommon for a game to feature female protagonists, or at least female supporting cast members, but have all the generic enemies be male. Pretty much the only modern ones with female generic enemies I can think of are ones that feature create-a-characters, though even there the ratios are usually skewed to feature more male adversaries.

Oh, this is true. There's a real lack of good female antagonists. Though it's not a videogame, it was nice to see a ruthless female antagonist in the last season of The Legend of Korra. (But that show pretty much ticks all the nice equality boxes anyway. Dark-skinned, female, LGBT protagonist? Yay!)

I can't think of many games that have similar quality antagonists, though. Maybe because women are seen as less powerful, less competitive, less aggressive etc, which are all common traits that leads to a character turning into the Big Bad.

I don't think so, because often female antagonists are special forces / elite units or bosses. Very rarely "grunts". Their gender is a signifier of greater power when it's used, because they're rare.

I think the main reason is that no-one wants their game to be associated with violence against women, that's why this stuff rarely gets ok'd to go into commerical games, the controversy of slaughtering a lot of women. Mowing down waves of guys doesn't create negative press.

[Caz]

I think the main reason is that no-one wants their game to be associated with violence against women, that's why this stuff rarely gets ok'd to go into commerical games, the controversy of slaughtering a lot of women. Mowing down waves of guys doesn't create negative press.

Yeah, it's a pretty lame double-standard.

Edit: Though, depends on the genre. In sci-fi or fantasy it'd be acceptable to have lots of women in the horde of mooks, but in the standard modern-day shooter there's not much room for it, which is bringing up the discussion we had for several pages earlier in the thread. Though those kind of games don't tend to have female bosses either, unless it's the 'love interest betrayal!' trope.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Reelya has it right. Some Australians had a massive fuss over the player's ability to kill women in GTA 5, despite the fact that he can kill men as well, resulting in the game being banned from stores. The player can kill everybody, but the female deaths count more for hysteria.

I have seen negative press for games involving killing lots of men, but killing women does seem to make the outcry more serious to the point where morons actually ban things.

[smeeprocket]

I think the main reason is that no-one wants their game to be associated with violence against women, that's why this stuff rarely gets ok'd to go into commerical games, the controversy of slaughtering a lot of women. Mowing down waves of guys doesn't create negative press.

Yeah, it's a pretty lame double-standard.

First off, not to the quoted post, but to the person who used a transsexual prostitute in a game of positive or even neutral transsexuals in gaming...WTF. Really? There is literally no argument to make against that because it is so ridiculously wrong that there's no way to form a counter point.

You really think that's a good representation of anyone?

"Well we gave you guys a hooker, what more do you want?" Because that isn't a stereotype at all and.. no there's no way to even argue it in detail. It is just 100% wrong.

Moving on..

I don't know where this certified 50% of protagonists in current gen games are female thing comes from because that is definitely not true. I certainly haven't seen a statistic for that posted here. Feel free to present one, because I want to see it.

As for LGBTQIA+ women, especially of color, or just women of color in general, yes they are even MORE underrepresented and represented in a negative light.

The reason violence against women is such a bad things in games is because of how casually it is treated in real life and the fact that men are physically more powerful than women. It's because of the huge rape and domestic violence statistics and the IDGAF attitude society has about the whole thing.

It's not a double standard. It is entirely different, and it trivializes those issues to state that.

There's a reason why you don't hit a woman irl even if she hits you. She's gonna make your face a little red, you could crack her jaw.

There are women, of course, that can knock a man out, but the natural strength difference is great enough and violence against women specifically by men is an issue enough, that no, it should not be prevalent in games. It has nothing to do with being a hypocrite, you are not gaming in a vacuum. And we definitely do not want to normalize violence against women for the male portion of the audience.

As for what a strong female protagonist in current games would be, I haven't played Mass Effect, but I hear Female Shepherd s quite awesome. Also Samus in Metroid Prime.

[Caz]

The reason violence against women is such a bad things in games is because of how casually it is treated in real life and the fact that men are physically more powerful than women. It's because of the huge rape and domestic violence statistics and the IDGAF attitude society has about the whole thing.

It's not a double standard. It is entirely different, and it trivializes those issues to state that.

There's a reason why you don't hit a woman irl even if she hits you. She's gonna make your face a little red, you could crack her jaw.

There are women, of course, that can knock a man out, but the natural strength difference is great enough and violence against women specifically by men is an issue enough, that no, it should not be prevalent in games. It has nothing to do with being a hypocrite, you are not gaming in a vacuum. And we definitely do not want to normalize violence against women for the male portion of the audience.

As for what a strong female protagonist in current games would be, I haven't played Mass Effect, but I hear Female Shepherd s quite awesome. Also Samus in Metroid Prime.

What about the normalisation of violence against men? Should we ban all violence in video games and movies?

[smeeprocket]

The reason violence against women is such a bad things in games is because of how casually it is treated in real life and the fact that men are physically more powerful than women. It's because of the huge rape and domestic violence statistics and the IDGAF attitude society has about the whole thing.

It's not a double standard. It is entirely different, and it trivializes those issues to state that.

There's a reason why you don't hit a woman irl even if she hits you. She's gonna make your face a little red, you could crack her jaw.

There are women, of course, that can knock a man out, but the natural strength difference is great enough and violence against women specifically by men is an issue enough, that no, it should not be prevalent in games. It has nothing to do with being a hypocrite, you are not gaming in a vacuum. And we definitely do not want to normalize violence against women for the male portion of the audience.

As for what a strong female protagonist in current games would be, I haven't played Mass Effect, but I hear Female Shepherd s quite awesome. Also Samus in Metroid Prime.

What about the normalisation of violence against men? Should we ban all violence in video games and movies?

Society takes violence against men a lot more seriously.

However, there are instances where it's still messed up.

Such as the Resident Evil done in Africa where you are a white male killing scores of black zombies.

Like I said, you are not playing in a vacuum. Normalizing violence against an oppressed minority, which is something that is only not quite acceptable (and oftentimes pretty acceptable) to society is different from white dudes unloading on each other. That's an equal playing field.

[Arx]

I don't know where this certified 50% of protagonists in current gen games are female thing comes from because that is definitely not true. I certainly haven't seen a statistic for that posted here. Feel free to present one, because I want to see it.

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/358545/51_hd-gen_games_feature_female_characters/

Despite recent insinuations that female protagonists may negatively impact game sales, a recent study held by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research) shows that this current generation boasts more playable female characters than ever before.

As noted by the EEDAR's studies, a whopping 51% of HD-gen games feature playable female characters -- a massive contrast to the male-dominated 90%, but a number that shows undeniable progress on behalf of the video game industry's efforts to appeal to ever-expanding demographics.

That's the source for Reelya's claim, I believe.

[smeeprocket]

I don't know where this certified 50% of protagonists in current gen games are female thing comes from because that is definitely not true. I certainly haven't seen a statistic for that posted here. Feel free to present one, because I want to see it.

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/358545/51_hd-gen_games_feature_female_characters/

Despite recent insinuations that female protagonists may negatively impact game sales, a recent study held by the EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research) shows that this current generation boasts more playable female characters than ever before.

As noted by the EEDAR's studies, a whopping 51% of HD-gen games feature playable female characters -- a massive contrast to the male-dominated 90%, but a number that shows undeniable progress on behalf of the video game industry's efforts to appeal to ever-expanding demographics.

That's the source for Reelya's claim, I believe.

what is HD-gen and what is the EEDAR? Not the acronym, who are they? I have never even heard of them.

[Caz]

Society takes violence against men a lot more seriously.

Seriously? I've seen it to be the opposite. No one takes it seriously when a woman attacks a man, and male on male violence is almost laughably normalised.

Normalizing violence against an oppressed minority,

How are women an 'oppressed minority'?

[10ebbor10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Entertainment_Design_and_Research

Large video game market research institute. Seems like a trust able source.

[smeeprocket]

Society takes violence against men a lot more seriously.

Seriously? I've seen it to be the opposite. No one takes it seriously when a woman attacks a man, and male on male violence is almost laughably normalised.

Normalizing violence against an oppressed minority,

How are women an 'oppressed minority'?

Statistically, that is not how it plays out. As in, if you retaliate against your abuser, you go to jail for longer. You will serve longer prison sentences for hurting a stranger than your wife or girlfriend. there is a 3% conviction rate on rape. Domestic violence conviction rates are abysmally low.

http://cjr.sagepub.com/content/34/1/44.abstract

Did you really ask how are women an oppressed minority? I don't know how to answer that because I can only assume you live in a Bizarro version of Earth and are just visiting.

edit: I still don't fully understand this part of the article "As noted by the EEDAR's studies, a whopping 51% of HD-gen games feature playable female characters -- a massive contrast to the male-dominated 90%, but a number that shows undeniable progress on behalf of the video game industry's efforts to appeal to ever-expanding demographics." what is the 90% number for and what is HD-gen?

[Arx]

Your choice of words is off there, I think. Women are not a minority, certainly not by a significant margin. Oppressed I can accept, but not minority.

Also, please don't insult people's grasp of reality just because they disagree with you.