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[alexandertnt]

I do not believe it is a coincidence that it happens so often, no. I already implied that people tend to associate women with these sorts of roles, and that it's harmful. I do not doubt that "sex sells", and that people are abusing that.

I am only doubting it (doubting, not denying) in this one circumstance, not in all circumstances. The only reason I am doubting it in this circumstance is that it does an effective job of communicating important ideas about the characters (specifically Jabba).

edit: why does leia need a metal bikini to kill jabba with her chain. She could have been in tattered prison garb and killed him with a chain just as well.

A slaver will invoke negative reactions, sure, but a sex slaver is generally percieved as that next step of terrable-ness...

I also think there is a certain ammount of contrast going on here between Leia and Jabba. Jabba, being a giant ugly space slug thing, makes the whole situation seem more abhorrent when it somehow involves sex then if it had just involved, say, violence or slavery. From memory, some of the sex slaves are even there to please Jabba, which is really gross, and makes us really hate him.

[smeeprocket]

I do not believe it is a coincidence that it happens so often, no. I already implied that people tend to associate women with these sorts of roles, and that it's harmful. I do not doubt that "sex sells", and that people are abusing that.

I am only doubting it (doubting, not denying) in this one circumstance, not in all circumstances. The only reason I am doubting it in this circumstance is that it does an effective job of communicating important ideas about the characters (specifically Jabba).

edit: why does leia need a metal bikini to kill jabba with her chain. She could have been in tattered prison garb and killed him with a chain just as well.

A slaver will invoke negative reactions, sure, but a sex slaver is generally percieved as that next step of terrable-ness...

I also think there is a certain ammount of contrast going on here between Leia and Jabba. Jabba, being a giant ugly space slug thing, makes the whole situation seem more abhorrent when it somehow involves sex then if it had just involved, say, violence or slavery. From memory, some of the sex slaves are even there to please Jabba, which is really gross, and makes us really hate him.

even if that were entirely true (though I would be curious as to why jabba is obsessed with humanoid concepts of sexuality and doesn't find his own list of things attractive) any woman involved in that set up would still just be a prop, an object. Their bodies would be on display to make a rather unnecessary point in the story (slavery is bad enough to make you hate a villain. Insisting on sex slavery is unnecessary and also exists to illicit the concept of the damsel in distress, and the vicitmized female.) Leia gets revenge, but that's part of the fantasy. You see this with women in prison exploitation films. The revenge is used to make the viewer feel better about the awful sexual acts committed against the women earlier in the film.

[Neonivek]

I am telling you this

If there is no "female power fantasies" then there are no "male power fantasies"

It really is as simple as that.

If there is no vision of a female character that a woman can feel empowered through, then by what means can a male be?

Or do women just do not desire to feel special? Because that is "the condition" not to have a power fantasy.

There aren't many games that I could consider "female power fantasy"

It is because you are too stuck on "For all women"

Just think about typical characters considered to be male power fantasies such as Rambo.

Any "strong male character" has at one point or another been considered a male power fantasy... Whether or not any male sees them that way.

Yet by what metric can that be considered valid by the same way we consider female power fantasies?

The ONLY aspect that makes something a power fantasy is it needs to be empowering. How many videogame females would you consider to be empowered, or strong, or virtuous, or intelligent, or beautiful, or popular, or fashionable, or together, or stable, or independent, or with great friends, who rises to the occasion, who gets the guy, who gets the girl, who saves the day, who saves the world, who discovers who they really are, who finds out they are actually special?

Sure not many protagonists would be iconic under "female power fantasy" but how many males honestly view their male protagonists as their "Iconic male power fantasy"?

But why am I saying this?

Because "Male power fantasy" is used as an insult and to basically put "all men" into this box.

You want to know who my favorite videogame male protagonist who I would emulate if I had to? Alexander from Kings Quest 6, he is smart, soft-spoken, brave, romantic, well-read, and witty. He is the exact opposite of a typical male protagonist. Is he a male power fantasy? He certainly isn't a physical strong character.

Take Nancy Drew, Wonder Woman (When written well), Kim Possible, Hannah Montanah... Do none of these count as a female power fantasy? They have every single ingredient to be one.

Are they just too "Beneith" women to count? Do female power fantasies need to be superior to male ones? They can't just be some stupid junk that is fun to think about?

Edit: Yeah I know I am wording these WAAAAAY too strong >_< I don't know how to word them more neutrally... uhh so please bare with me.

[Ghills]

Take Nancy Drew, Wonder Woman (When written well), Kim Possible, Hannah Montanah... Do none of these count as a female power fantasy? They have every single ingredient to be one.

Are they just too "Beneith" women to count? Do female power fantasies need to be superior to male ones? They can't just be some stupid junk that is fun to think about?

Edit: Yeah I know I am wording these WAAAAAY too strong >_< I don't know how to word them more neutrally... uhh so please bare with me.

A good first step to wording things politely would be to not start out with 'I am telling you this'. That sets up your opinion - and your post is just opinion - as fact.

I definitely wouldn't count Wonder Woman as a female power fantasy. She was created by men, for men, and the main creater was definitely not a feminist. To quote from Wikipedia:

"Marston posited that there is a masculine notion of freedom that is inherently anarchic and violent and an opposing feminine notion based on "Love Allure" that leads to an ideal state of submission to loving authority. In 1929, Moulton wrote on the blossoming Men's rights movement as a newspaper columnist.[8]"   

"Marston's "Wonder Woman" is an early example of bondage themes that were entering popular culture in the 1930s.[1]"

"He purposely aimed to condition readers to becoming more readily accepting to submission to loving authorities rather than being so assertive to their own destructive egos."

"About male readers, he later wrote: "Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves! [15]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Moulton_Marston

You can call that lots of things, but it's definitely not empowering to women. Or men, for that matter!

[Neonivek]

I definitely wouldn't count Wonder Woman as a female power fantasy. She was created by men, for men, and the main creater was definitely not a feminist

You can call that lots of things, but it's definitely not empowering to women. Or men, for that matter

You are strongly mistaking the history of Wonder Woman with what she became down the road.

It would be like if I brought up how Nancy Drew started off as a female hardy boy.

In spite the fact that Nancy Drew eclipsed their popularity and has been considered one of the staple feminist characters for decades mostly for being strong, independent, and intelligent. A idealized female character, and one of the few. I've heard Nancy Drew being compared to Superman in that "One isn't supposed to relate to Nancy Drew so much as aspire to be her".

But none of that is in "Nancy Drew was written as a Hardy Boy except as a woman".

There is a reason Ghills that Wonder Woman is a "feminist icon" and it is because Wonder Woman evolved.

Sure there are plenty of writers who have written her BAAAAAADLY! but Gail Simone's run pretty firmly cemented her character prior to the reboot of death.

A good first step to wording things politely would be to not start out with 'I am telling you this'. That sets up your opinion - and your post is just opinion - as fact

By what means aren't they a female power fantasy? The only one you objected to was Wonderwoman on the basis that the original creator in the 60s wrote her as a sort of play on bondage in which he believed that bondage was the one way the sexes could be put onto equal ground through mutual submission. (Yes, in fact I am well versed on Wonder Woman's origins)

But sure, lets eliminate Wonderwoman since it would take too long to argue this...

I'll just replace her with Oracle (Pre-52) a Paraplegic female super hacker, and unlike a LOT of disabled super heroes and heroines, she doesn't "overcome" it (as in. she isn't Dare Devil who might as well be able to see.)

Can we get some objections to the other ones? Pandering garbage certainly doesn't disqualify things.

I am also going to add the Spice Girls (Since "Girl Power" is "Female power fantasy" in different words). We can also include Ridley from Alien, and Scully from X-files.

Just remember if you do object to these you cannot object to them on the basis of quality.

For example I would certainly argue that Anastasia Steele is NOT a female power fantasy because she isn't a strong or desirable character even within the context of the book. Bella from Twilight though, who is special without even trying to be, certainly counts... SURE she is a poorly written character (to an extent), but then again we have to judge "Female Power Fantasy" by the same metric we judge a "male power fantasy" and we never go "well that movie was TERRIBLE! It can't be a male power fantasy".

[Caz]

There is no such thing as a female power fantasy.

Uhm... wat? I'm pretty sure that burning people to death in skyrim qualifies as this. Also with the stabbing. On the bandits. Yeah, because I don't go around killing innocent people in that game. Nope.

[Caz]

Geez women don't walk around thinking about how they can seduce men.

...Yes they do. Ever been to a bar at 11pm?

[Neonivek]

Geez women don't walk around thinking about how they can seduce men.

...Yes they do. Ever been to a bar at 11pm?

Well typically Caz one typical difference between men and women is that women have a very 1 on 1 mentality.

While men typically have a "many partners" mentality.

It is why "Its raining men" being written by a man, actually makes sense.

Mind you, that is a VERY loose "typically" that I'd put at "above average".

But no you are right... Women do have sex drives. While yes, women are not all consumed by the thought of seduction... I'd be willing to wager that their fantasies of men are at least equal to men.

But I have no idea how a study could find that out. Since I know there was a study that found out that women have greater sex drives then men... but that is different then "Fantasizing about picking up dates"

[Caz]

Geez women don't walk around thinking about how they can seduce men.

...Yes they do. Ever been to a bar at 11pm?

Well typically Caz one typical difference between men and women is that women have a very 1 on 1 mentality.

While men typically have a "many partners" mentality.

It is why "Its raining men" being written by a man, actually makes sense.

Mind you, that is a VERY loose "typically" that I'd put at "above average".

But no you are right... Women do have sex drives. While yes, women are not all consumed by the thought of seduction... I'd be willing to wager that their fantasies of men are at least equal to men.

But I have no idea how a study could find that out. Since I know there was a study that found out that women have greater sex drives then men... but that is different then "Fantasizing about picking up dates"

Well, I don't really care about what people are thinking of doing, but more about their actual actions. Most of the times I have been at a bar it's been fairly 50/50 with women and men trying to interact with each other first. Though we're not as socially conservative as America, so maybe that plays a part.


Edit because I fail at writing full coherent sentences

[Reelya]

A lot of gender differences in sexual behavior are exagerrated due to patriarchal norms: for example heterosexual men report sleeping with a lot more women in their lifetime than heterosexual women do with men, for both mean and median values, like 3-6 times as many depending on the survey. This is what all the surveys says but it's physically impossible to be true, because it's a symmetric relationship (it takes two). If every man says "i've slept with 6 women in my lifetime" and every woman says "I've slept with 2 men in my lifetime" (both figures very close to the surveys) then which women did they sleep with? It doesn't add up. Clearly the men are exaggerating their conquests and/or the women are understating things.

Regardless of impressions or beliefs about which gender is more promiscuous, the total score for "doing it" on both sides is equal.

[Caz]

A lot of gender differences in sexual behavior are exagerrated due to patriarchal norms: for example heterosexual men report sleeping with a lot more women in their lifetime than heterosexual women do with men, for both mean and median values, like 3-6 times as many depending on the survey. This is what all the surveys says but it's physically impossible to be true, because it's a symmetric relationship (it takes two). If every man says "i've slept with 6 women in my lifetime" and every woman says "I've slept with 2 men in my lifetime" (both figures very close to the surveys) then which women did they sleep with? It doesn't add up. Clearly the men are exaggerating their conquests and/or the women are understating things.

Regardless of impressions or beliefs about which gender is more promiscuous, the total score for "doing it" on both sides is equal.

Yeah, this is kinda what I was getting at with the "not caring about what people think" though I didn't express it well. It's hard to know what people are thinking, and even if you ask them there's a good chance they'll lie to make themselves look better, even in an anonymous poll.

[Urist Tilaturist]

even if that were entirely true (though I would be curious as to why jabba is obsessed with humanoid concepts of sexuality and doesn't find his own list of things attractive) any woman involved in that set up would still just be a prop, an object. Their bodies would be on display to make a rather unnecessary point in the story (slavery is bad enough to make you hate a villain. Insisting on sex slavery is unnecessary and also exists to illicit the concept of the damsel in distress, and the vicitmized female.) Leia gets revenge, but that's part of the fantasy. You see this with women in prison exploitation films. The revenge is used to make the viewer feel better about the awful sexual acts committed against the women earlier in the film.

Illicit is an adjective, not a verb. I have no idea what you are trying to say in that sentence - sex slavery is illicit, but the concept of a damsel in distress is not.

Why is that part of the story more unnecessary than any other part not of vital importance to the plot?

No, a sex slave is not an object or a prop - that is more how the slavers themselves would see her. She is a character just like everybody else, just in unfortunate circumstances. Stories are not necessarily "set up" to achieve anything - a scene might just be part of the narrative.

The revenge in an exploitation film may also be for viewers to jack off to the gore. Not everybody does things for the same reasons. Sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

I already said that Jabba probably had her to please his human friends.

[Reelya]

She meant "elicit".

[Glowcat]

...

Anyway, I have delivered my version of the female power fantasy that I feel parallels the male power fantasy and am curious on other women's thoughts as well as the men in the thread.

Another example would be Ellie from Borderlands 2. She's just awesome and I would play the hell out of that character.

I think there are plenty of women that want their characters to be "hot", though. Personally, I like people. People are just great, I want my characters to have a vast array of appearances. I like different things and prefer not to put all my eggs in one basket.

But keep in mind a woman's version of hot and a man's version are oftentimes very different. Even being sexually attracted to women, I don't really have anywhere near the same tastes as a lot of heterosexual males (except my boyfriend, who sends me burlesque pics through facebook all the time and who I share a Suicide Girls account with.)

My REAL power fantasy isn't really a physical one though and would be boring in a game. A highly successful female in a male-dominated profession with quick wit and the ability to lay the smack down verbally on any sexist or creeper that comes her way. She would preferably work in a STEM job of some sort. She would moonlight as a feminist blogger that remains unbothered by the vitriol and hate from the MRA and red piller and generally anti-feminist communities. Although, I guess her profession could be like "assassin" or something. But that goes back to a more violence based fantasy.

That, however, is my -personal- power fantasy, as opposed to a more generally acceptable to the female gamer community power fantasy.

I feel that we should avoid looking for a "real" (majority, I guess?) female power fantasy vs. personal fantasy when tackling issues of representation since by nature that prescribes what being a woman is about and, like the male power fantasies, excludes people who might be attracted to some aspects of female protagonists that might not sit well with a majority of female gamers, even if complicated, or want to look up to someone not represented in any of it (like your example - which is fairly badass). The issue with female representation in my mind is not that "male power fantasy" is somehow universal to anyone identified male, but rather the ways these narratives are marketed, and the exclusion that presents for women who are not happy with the "sexy heroine" stereotype, especially when it does not appeal to the kind of sexy that more women are comfortable with because it seems to demand or at least enthusiastically encourage (rather than provide an option for) sexual openness or being there for the aesthetic pleasure of others. The commonality of this situation sets the way women are treated vs. men apart, and is something I feel should be criticized when it appears until things change more away from the skewed dominance of that type.

(less directed at smee)
Also, dealing with the example power fantasy provided by other people of "women really good at attracting men", this ends up being a uni-dimensional focus to the detriment of everything from inclusiveness to good writing. A detrimental sole-focus that is historically what oppressing women into roles of sexual gratification (limited to husbands or other "owners" of it, enforced by adultery laws, coverings, or anything else that denies a woman's sexual self-ownership) and reproduction has been about, so I'm not very happy with people using these portrayals as somehow vanguard displays of female empowerment, to say the least :I

There are women who do want to pursue a heterosexual relationship, but it's a heavily complicated example tied into another person's wants, instead of fulfilling the ego at the same undiluted level as most marketed male power fantasies, which incorporate further elements such as how a man's sexual prowess is/was* displayed typically vs. a woman's (i.e. often body count - with a value label assigned to each interchangeable woman being used primarily as an object of ego-fulfillment). To use those same pop-culture magazine images as an example of this problem: there tends to be significant focus on "making one's man happy" while that concern is extremely rare among masculine magazines outside of being impressive (in bed, for strength, or whatever makes you seem like a better person in itself rather than directly meeting another's needs). In the damsel trope for instance, there's only the heroic rescue element which is almost universally considered positive no matter one's background and something that I think most people feel they should aspire to (if for accolades if nothing else). I mean, this would be slightly less of an issue if men weren't always making jokes about taking women for granted, but it seems that caring for one's romantic (or even just sexual) interest is too often pushed as something for women and not men.

* It's not a switch so it won't universally apply, and in 2014 (soon to be 2015) there's at least a fair amount of push against those representations.

[Naryar]

I'll just bang in about this jabba and leia thing...

Jabba put Leia in a metal bikini because it was pleasing to him, and possibly because it was degrading to Leia (maybe he's a sadist ?). The outfit fits the story, therefore the "this scene is sexist" ain't a problem. This whole scene is made to show Jabba is, simply put, an asshole.

Hell this ain't even a damsel-in-distress scene because Leia ends up strangling Jabba with her chains, which is extra ironic and awesome.

Of course there's the thing of this scene being fanservice to certain people, but that's not important. The fanservice is minor, it's not like the cameraman goes "hey i'm going to zoom on her butt and breasts and naked skin for a while just for fanservice's sake"

Besides, It's not like Leia is a fragile damsel in distress instead of a sarcastic blaster-toting badass princess.