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Author Topic: Women soldiers  (Read 20779 times)

pisskop

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2015, 12:38:39 pm »

LOL @ Genghis Khan's empire was a matriarchy.  And then, also that Genghis Khan's empire is the model you put forth the for what matriarchies would do.  TBF, it do do a lot for their own people, but even if we accept your argument at face value it demonstrates that women are no 'better' then men, which you were so adamently implying earlier.

 - - - - -

I think I know what your article was saying, and I'm not sure if you just tried to take it to an illogical conclusion.

  They were talking about the roots of male dominance in most societies, not what our society today is turning into or advocating a female-run world.  They talked about the features of those agricultural societies (patriarchy being a feature of those societies, not the prominent definer), and you took it to another level.

- - - - -

While here, I'd like to point out that men and women are dimorphic, and that there is significant overlap depending on the specific genes and raise.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:41:18 pm by pisskop »
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Deboche

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #181 on: January 05, 2015, 12:42:54 pm »

And agriculture had nothing to do with hording, all mammals have hoarding behavior to deal with winter. Tribes would carry everything they made themselves and leave nothing behind when the food ran out; that's why, despite some 10,000-20,000 years of human tool-use we've only found a few artifacts in extremely out of the way places- usually near the remains of the tools' probable owners. Agriculture actually made it harder to survive at first, since we didn't know what we were doing and didn't get as varied a diet as our hunter-gatherer neighbors did. The only reason anyone put up with the back-breaking labor was to get our otherwise impossible alcohol fix on a regular basis, nomadic tribes had to either stumble on fermenting fruit by chance or wait long enough without food than was safe or comfortable.
http://www.economist.com/node/10278703
Here's a good article that backs my claim. You'll find many if you search.

Excerpts:
"Hunter-gatherers' dependence on sharing each other's hunting and gathering luck makes them remarkably egalitarian. A successful farmer, however, can afford to buy the labour of others, and that makes him more successful still, until eventually—especially in an irrigated river valley, where he controls the water—he can become an emperor imposing his despotic whim upon subjects. Friedrich Engels was probably right to identify agriculture with a loss of political innocence.
Agriculture also stands accused of exacerbating sexual inequality. In many peasant farming communities, men make women do much of the hard work. Among hunter-gathering folk, men usually bring fewer calories than women, and have a tiresome tendency to prefer catching big and infrequent prey so they can show off, rather than small and frequent catches that do not rot before they are eaten. But the men do at least contribute."

Finally, warfare is really just organized violence against an "other". If you seriously think we invented that then I invite you to look up what happens when two different pack-predators claim the same stretch of hunting territory.
Actually that article I posted does claim hunter-gatherers engaged in war but it doesn't cite its sources. Here's another article that explains why those claims are probably false:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/201103/steven-pinkers-stinker-the-origins-war
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LMeire

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #182 on: January 05, 2015, 02:05:53 pm »

@pisskop: I'm not sure how you got the idea I was advocating either sex to dominate the other, but not only would I call the Mongol Empire a typical matriarchy, but I would like to bolster that claim with Victoria's England, Cathrine's Russia, and Wu Zetian's China. There's a lot of differences between men and women, but the willingness to commit violence/treachery for the sake of more power is not one of them.

@Deboche: That second article seems to imply that the amount of war-deaths over the millennia hasn't been fluctuating much, if the foot-notes are anything to go by. So why should that imply hunter-gatherers were peaceful?
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Deboche

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #183 on: January 05, 2015, 02:26:43 pm »

I don't know where you got that idea. It's an article about how the tribes that were selected to study whether war exists among hunter-gatherers weren't really hunter-gatherers.
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pisskop

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #184 on: January 05, 2015, 02:31:35 pm »

@pisskop: I'm not sure how you got the idea I was advocating either sex to dominate the other, but not only would I call the Mongol Empire a typical matriarchy, but I would like to bolster that claim with Victoria's England, Cathrine's Russia, and Wu Zetian's China. There's a lot of differences between men and women, but the willingness to commit violence/treachery for the sake of more power is not one of them.
Mixed wires; wrong person.  The 'previous implications' was directed @ Deboche.
  Its true those were examples of matriarchies, but for us to examine the effects of a woman-dominated society we would need an extended period of time where women clearly held most or all positions of influence.  There are certainly examples of powerful women pulling strings behind rulers or acting as rulers, but to be able to compare a male versus a female run society we would need a strong period wherein cross-generational changes can occur.  We can only conclude s much from individual women acting as rulers.  And certainly not enough to produce the list that was given earlier.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 02:33:06 pm by pisskop »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #185 on: January 05, 2015, 02:35:36 pm »

Societies like the Mongols, Iroquois, and Scythians were not matriarchies as much as societies where wise women's advice was heeded. In these cultures women's opinions were officially accepted in political decisions more than they were elsewhere, though women had extensive influence even in outright patriarchies (the Ottoman empire was sometimes ruled by the sultan's wives if the sultan was incapable). What these cases show is that women holding powerful positions did not stop fighting or scheming.

Why I would not call these societies matriarchies is that political power was in practice shared between men and women. Matriarchy implies that men are relatively powerless, which was not the case and has not been the case even in societies which are very respectful of women and allow polygamy by both sexes (the Mosuo, for example). There has never been a society, or at least not one recorded, where men were widely oppressed by women, or men held no power at all.

The article about hunter gatherers, or how Pinker's choice of tribes were not hunter gatherers at all, suggests that our past may be closer to non violent bonobos than violent chimpanzees, but that seems unlikely given how things have turned out; inventing warfare at the start of agriculture seems somewhat unlikely if we had not done it before, and it seems much more likely that bonobos are just an exception to the generally violent nature of apes and we are one of the generally violent species. There are very few hunter gatherers left, but it seems very unlikely that those hunting spears never turned on members of another tribe.
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Pyrite

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #186 on: January 05, 2015, 05:53:31 pm »


Why I would not call these societies matriarchies is that political power was in practice shared between men and women. Matriarchy implies that men are relatively powerless, which was not the case and has not been the case even in societies which are very respectful of women and allow polygamy by both sexes (the Mosuo, for example). There has never been a society, or at least not one recorded, where men were widely oppressed by women, or men held no power at all.
I think the assumption of people arguing this is that if men aren't allowed to oppress women, then the words of wise women naturally are more heeded than those of stupid men and the women end up effectively in charge.

Also bringing up the rule of Queen Elizabeth as a time without petty politicking or backstabbing is hilarious.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #187 on: January 05, 2015, 06:01:35 pm »

Since Elizabeth's reign featured several nasty plots and attempted Spanish invasion, it does not seem the most peaceful of times.

Wise women are more heeded than stupid men in those societies, but wise men are still heeded too. There is just no assumption that a man knows better by default.
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nuget102

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #188 on: January 05, 2015, 06:32:55 pm »

I personally never draft woman into my military unless they possess some sort of trait that will prevent them from reproducing. (e.g. they're asexual/gay) It's not a sexist thing, it's just a practicality thing, at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P

But the point is this: at the moment only way dwarves can take care of children is if it's their own. I don't want to go through the trouble of making a 'training-only' squad because I have enough to keep track of in DF without worrying about if one of my dwarves are about to use their new born son/daughter as a meat shield.
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Aslandus

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #189 on: January 05, 2015, 07:41:55 pm »

at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P
If only we could build cradles for dwarves to keep infants in, like nest boxes but for dwarven babies... maybe have a labor for taking care of infants...

pisskop

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #190 on: January 05, 2015, 07:45:28 pm »

at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P
If only we could build cradles for dwarves to keep infants in, like nest boxes but for dwarven babies... maybe have a labor for taking care of infants...
Please have this.  I spend 90% of my games actually caring what happens to the filthy critters.
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Pyrite

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #191 on: January 05, 2015, 07:54:45 pm »

I personally never draft woman into my military unless they possess some sort of trait that will prevent them from reproducing. (e.g. they're asexual/gay) It's not a sexist thing, it's just a practicality thing, at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P

But the point is this: at the moment only way dwarves can take care of children is if it's their own. I don't want to go through the trouble of making a 'training-only' squad because I have enough to keep track of in DF without worrying about if one of my dwarves are about to use their new born son/daughter as a meat shield.

You know, you could just as easily still draft them, and just drop them from military service when they give birth (by checking each time a dwarf gives birth if they are in a squad or not.) The game already pauses and recenters on a dwarf giving birth, so it's doing a lot of the work for you.
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LMeire

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #192 on: January 05, 2015, 08:13:44 pm »

I actually read the second article fully now, rather than the brief skimming just before I left for class. I still don't think it said much, since it was basically a review of one guy and his reasoning on the matter. It doesn't seem to confirm nor deny prehistoric "human-on-human" violence, even though there's lots of evidence that hominids killed one another all the time- since there's a lot of remains found with axe and spear marks on their bones- like in "Cemetery 117".

Ignore the title, that's just edgy click-bait. It's later stated that the massacre was probably because climate change caused the region to have less food.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 08:15:24 pm by LMeire »
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Aslandus

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #193 on: January 05, 2015, 08:29:37 pm »

at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P
If only we could build cradles for dwarves to keep infants in, like nest boxes but for dwarven babies... maybe have a labor for taking care of infants...
Please have this.  I spend 90% of my games actually caring what happens to the filthy critters.
Suggestion, boom:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147262.0

Loyal

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Re: Women soldiers
« Reply #194 on: January 05, 2015, 09:42:19 pm »

I personally never draft woman into my military unless they possess some sort of trait that will prevent them from reproducing. (e.g. they're asexual/gay) It's not a sexist thing, it's just a practicality thing, at the current moment you can't have your military dwarves drop kids off at a daycare of sort, if that were implemented though I wouldn't give a crap who I drafted into the military. :P

But the point is this: at the moment only way dwarves can take care of children is if it's their own. I don't want to go through the trouble of making a 'training-only' squad because I have enough to keep track of in DF without worrying about if one of my dwarves are about to use their new born son/daughter as a meat shield.

You know, you could just as easily still draft them, and just drop them from military service when they give birth (by checking each time a dwarf gives birth if they are in a squad or not.) The game already pauses and recenters on a dwarf giving birth, so it's doing a lot of the work for you.
Which, in a game fraught with layers upon layers of micromanagement (including the difficulties of actually having a functioning military in any capacity at all), is still more micromanagement than some people really care to bother with. Especially considering that deactivating a new mother basically means wasting the training time you put into her, which you may or may not ever get back depending on how long her husband lives and how frequently they add to their family.
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