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[pisskop]

It is impossible for a female to be gelded. She can be sterilised, but only by grievous damage to the oviducts or ovaries that would likely cause death with DF medical technology.

Dwarven hysterectomies should not be in the game.

Aye.  The rules for a game /=/ reality all the time, though.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Dwarves can have a go at hysterectomies. It will just be !!fun!!, or deadly in real terms.

But I really do not want to see all kinds of crazy, deadly operations in DF. It's just not the best use of Toady's time.

[Aslandus]

Hysterectomies might be a little over the top, but it seems like it should be possible for females to be gelded by injuries too, which may be survivable with skilled hospital workers (and a bit of luck, or at least fast healing)...

[pisskop]

Hysterectomies might be a little over the top, but it seems like it should be possible for females to be gelded by injuries too, which may be survivable with skilled hospital workers (and a bit of luck, or at least fast healing)...

Fast healing is freakin' AWESOME.  I've seen dwarves heal Necrotic tissue (well, scars) before they walked off the battlefield and got diagnosed for it.

[vjmdhzgr]

Taking longer to tire won't help you in a speed test, but helps in the long run(no pun intended).
Also, most of the fastest dudes in earth are black, it has something to do with their muscle tissue being structured somewhat differently than white people's.

I've learned about that and it's not black people specifically, nor is it all of them. It's just a different, and overall superior muscle tissue that originated in Africa and so is most common in Africa. That's not racist or any type of discrimination until people start considering people without that lesser people or something. Now that that completely off topic thing is discussed, an on topic statement: everything just about all of you are saying is completely irrelevant to Dwarf Fortress because the only gender dimorphism in Dwarf Fortress is that only male and female married couples can have children, when women give birth they get a bigger happy thought than the father, and that mothers carry children around. Some people have their dwarves living in bad enough conditions that a dead child is enough to ruin their whole fort apparently and so choose to not put women into the military since their children might die. I don't think it's that big of a concern if you just have a nice dining hall, but some people think it is, so whatever. I don't think there's anything else to say and that this thread honestly shouldn't even exist.

[Aslandus]

I don't think there's anything else to say and that this thread honestly shouldn't even exist.

That's never stopped us from dragging out discussions before

[Urist Tilaturist]

Hysterectomies might be a little over the top, but it seems like it should be possible for females to be gelded by injuries too, which may be survivable with skilled hospital workers (and a bit of luck, or at least fast healing)...

If they have their ovaries or oviducts mutilated, and somehow survive, yes. A small chance on a severe abdominal wound, perhaps.

[Deboche]

I've learned about that and it's not black people specifically, nor is it all of them. It's just a different, and overall superior muscle tissue that originated in Africa and so is most common in Africa. That's not racist or any type of discrimination until people start considering people without that lesser people or something. Now that that completely off topic thing is discussed, an on topic statement: everything just about all of you are saying is completely irrelevant to Dwarf Fortress because the only gender dimorphism in Dwarf Fortress is that only male and female married couples can have children, when women give birth they get a bigger happy thought than the father, and that mothers carry children around.

Of course you can't generalize for all black people. Africa is so big it's only natural that there are different races among black people just like white is a very vague term because there are obvious differences between different white peoples.

But isn't gender dimorphism something that should be looked at? Dwarf women obviously can't be exactly like the men physically because they need to get pregnant. Do they all sport child-bearing hips? What about breasts, body fat, height and so on?

There's also the issue of monogamy and patriarchy which usually go hand in hand. Dwarf Fortress is a patriarchal society since there's little literacy and personal freedom and they're all monogamous. It makes sense because although fortresses are pretty much communist now, we know economy is gonna be added in the future and monogamy is the way to ensure you know who your children are so you can pass down your wealth.

Ideally, it'd be really cool if you could reach a level of complexity in DF where women becoming educated caused changes to the dwarven power structure. But we have yet to see what the religion update will bring. Will there be morals, dogma, repression, religious war?

TLDR: There's plenty to talk about concerning women in DF.

[vjmdhzgr]

Dwarf Fortress is a patriarchal society since there's little literacy and personal freedom and they're all monogamous.

Wut? The only gender restriction in Dwarf Fortress is elven monarchs (queens) and generals (princesses) are exclusively female. I'm not saying it's the opposite or anything, I'm more confused about how those things are even related.

[Aslandus]

Dwarf Fortress is a patriarchal society since there's little literacy and personal freedom and they're all monogamous.

Wut? The only gender restriction in Dwarf Fortress is elven monarchs (queens) and generals (princesses) are exclusively female. I'm not saying it's the opposite or anything, I'm more confused about how those things are even related.

He's using real world human societal trends to try to make comments about dwarven society. Since they're dwarves, it's probably all tradition from a forgotten age that they are too stubborn to give up, despite having a gender neutral social structure. That said, it sounds like he/she is assuming correlation=causation, and that being "patriarchal" (ie led by men) automatically means low literacy and low personal freedom rather than believing it was a coincidence in history.

In my experience, men and women act quite similarly if they have similar upbringings, and that apart from bearing children and impregnating women, there's nothing one gender can do that the other can't...

[Urist Tilaturist]

I strongly suspect that deboche is a troll, but I shall try to take him seriously for now...

Dwarves are gender equal, about as far from patriarchal as possible. Patriarchal, deboche, means ruled by men. Dwarves are not ruled by men. Some species, like birds of prey, have genders equal in size and strength. Dwarves are one of those species. Dimorphism would be a good addition for mundane creatures, like humans and elephants, and maybe some others, but dwarves have both sexes similar size and strength.

The thing that made me doubt deboche's sincerity was the point about monogamy. Most patriarchal societies have double standards regarding monogamy; men can have several wives or mistresses, while women must stay loyal to one partner only. This harem culture creates an unequal society. Dwarves are nothing like this, with both partners being loyal. There is no evidence that anything is unequal.

[Deboche]

Yes, I meant patriarchal when it comes to how it works, not that it's necessarily run by men. We can argue about whether these things are linked to patriarchy.

I like the ideas of Chris Ryan who points out that humans are naturally polygamous but with the invention of agriculture came settlements and hoarding of wealth. The necessity to know who your children are so you can pass down your wealth is what makes monogamy necessary. You can also find similar ideas in Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising, which is where I got this:



In any case, DF takes place in a society that emulates to some degree European medieval society which was very patriarchal, even when the monarch was a queen.

In my experience, men and women act quite similarly if they have similar upbringings, and that apart from bearing children and impregnating women, there's nothing one gender can do that the other can't...

I don't know why this is relevant. In any case, I don't agree that they act similarly if they have similar upbringings. You'll notice the ratio of men to women in most college courses is skewed generally. Men are also more likely to commit violent crimes.

The idea that the differences between men and women end at the genitals is similar to the idea that differences between races end at the color of the skin. It's counterproductive.

[Graknorke]

Yes, I meant patriarchal when it comes to how it works, not that it's necessarily run by men.

Has every dictionary I've ever read lied to me?

[LMeire]

Low literacy and personal freedom translates more to aristocracy or oligarchy than it does patriarchy. Of course, in ancient Rome, patriarchy and oligarchy meant the same thing: the head of the household controlled all the money and thus had more say in the government, (This is why we still call it "patronage" when you donate money to a charity even if there's no fatherhood involved, money was seen as a masculine enough trait that a woman with enough money might well be called fatherly.) and if that's Deboche's definition then this is really just an issue with semantics.

EDIT: Deboche, that's just relabeled Radical Theory.

[BlackFlyme]

It's like being back in my sociology classes. That course featured some of the most amusing arguments I've ever heard.

Like one about how the human 'races' were actually different species altogether, like cats and dogs, and we only grouped us all as 'human' to make things easier, because interbreeding is possible.

Of course, the concept of race is just an arbitrary system of categorizing peoples basic on stereotypes and characteristics.

If only there was a way to unfollow threads you have posted in.