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[Nikow]

is there even anesthetic in DF at all? I've watched videos of this being done on animals and it certainly doesn't look painless. But I can't really confirm that dwarves have the equipment that real life males and females generally have.

In middle ages, in some vilages and stuff we are still using bozee (like vodka, spiritus (clean alcohol) as anesthetic and wound deinfection method. As anesthetic you can overdose it, so you will pain less, as desinfection tool you are using it directly on wound. It feel painly only for short period, later you doesnt feel that. Sadly, when you using alcohol on flesh there will be always bad looking scar and you will lose feel in scar area because you burned out nerves. We are not using alcohol as anesthetic, mostly because your veins and alteries are expanded because of it (this is why most drunk people are freezing during winter, They feel warm because there is fight inside your body, but your veins are expanded, so you are losing heat faster... and when you are cold enough (or drunk) your heart beating is slower and slower... so you are more sleepy and more sleppy... and you are losing consciousness/senses.

Being on topic, Why you want make your dwarves lazy and fat? Look at male cats after castration, they are only sleeping, just because They are not motivated by sex and strugling for sex. This is why coruples are more productive, even when They are "wasting" more time together. And children… can dissapear in worse scenario, just olck them down in small rooms with booze and food... or without... Later just prepare slab for him in some small tomb and coffin... This is sad when i am thinking about it...

Mothers in my militaria are just trainers, every two/three momies are training with green dwarfs, just because They are training my recruits faster. Four recruits squads are usualy doing worse work in military then two average, just because, recruits are faster to panic when They see death. Panic is spoiling hearts even most brave warriors, even in game. And more lost units causing more trauma over your ranks or whole frotress, so danger of spiral tantrum will be greater.

In my fortress some dwarves are dying from old age.

[pisskop]

this topic is degenerating into wild speculation.  Dwarves dont 'have sex' in any way we can tell.  We cant normally identify conception or pregnancy.  Literally the only change done was limiting the distance  pregnancies can occur at, and tge requirements for inception.

I could still use spores with the same validity as 'sex'.  Gelding in DF could simply be the removal of the (nerfed) spore launcher.

---

and while here, Id ask the code divers if  gelding causes pain, because, again, speculation.  I doubt it though, at least any more than a cut on the body.

[Aslandus]

this topic is degenerating into wild speculation.  Dwarves dont 'have sex' in any way we can tell.  We cant normally identify conception or pregnancy.  Literally the only change done was limiting the distance  pregnancies can occur at, and tge requirements for inception.

I could still use spores with the same validity as 'sex'.  Gelding in DF could simply be the removal of the (nerfed) spore launcher.

Now imagining a dwarf with a tiny catapult on his back that shoots spores at his wife when he passes by...

[Deboche]

I might as well reply to this since it's my quote in the first post.

I do think women should be completely excluded from war for logical reasons. If you have a population of 50 men and 50 women and something terrible happens to the military, you'll be in a much better place with 10 men and 50 women than if you have 30 men and 30 women, when it comes to repopulating. This doesn't apply to DF obviously since there's no polygamy.

Not to mention men are faster, stronger and bigger and therefore better soldiers.

I can't get into these discussions without being called sexist but these are just the facts, it's how nature made us. Women are too valuable to be going off doing dangerous things so nature made them more nurturing, more socially apt and less physically endowed. We can argue about whether dwarven lifestyle and evolution would make them the same way.

Which is not to say that women shouldn't be allowed to fight if they want to but there should be rules, such as if a woman gets pregnant or already has children she shouldn't be allowed to join the military and squads should never be mixed - sex is fine, just not the breeding kind.

[Urist Tilaturist]

The problem with the spores idea is that dwarves do not breed like spore based organisms or fish, who release sperm and eggs into the water and do not really mate at all. Reproduction in DF is only between married couples, and not with any other females passing by as would be the case with spore breeding. The current system where only 1 female can be impregnated by touching strongly suggests sex, like it or not.

[Aslandus]

The spore thing is a running gag for there being no actual copulation in the game (whether there will be in the future I don't know), I doubt it's actually supposed to be canon that dwarves are mushrooms... also I see deboche is determined to dig himself deeper in this "controversy" if you could call it that...

[Urist Tilaturist]

Deboche is bad news for the thread if smeeprocket comes back on. "Women are equally capable soldiers, but they cannot cause serious damage to the men who oppress them!" And so on. It is just the inconsistency that bothers me; if women can be strong soldiers, they can obviously do serious damage to men. Strength and victimhood are not really compatible positions to claim.

[Magistrum]

I will just say that "Deboche" is a Portuguese word which means "Make fun of" or "Satirize"...

[Urist Tilaturist]

Yes. But we cannot be sure that everybody knows that...

All too often satirists have been mistaken for extremists, with chaotic results.

[Deboche]

I'm not an extremist or satirist. I realize this is a touchy subject but it's not sexist to point out differences between sexes and the ways they affect the running of a community or dwarf fortress.

If I say people of Kenian and Ethiopian ethnicities have a natural gift for winning the 10000 meter races, that's not racism, it's just a fact. It must be something in their DNA that came from adapting to where they live.

Pointing out a difference isn't hateful and all the talk about equality is great as long as it doesn't censor us from speaking the truth. And what I described wasn't oppression of women, I said they would have the right to join the military if they so chose. Just because women have a different role in society doesn't mean they're oppressed.

I keep reading that this game is based on medieval European society. Women were pretty free back then, at least as far as anyone was free. It was during Victorian times that things changed and the myth of the chaste and reserved medieval woman was born and that's what feminism rebels against(I'm a feminist by the way).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL5CviNAhnk

Very enlightening video by Terry Jones of Monty Python fame.

The quote of me in the first post of this thread is actually how things happened as late as the 2nd world war where all the men went to fight and the women stayed behind to do all the work. In fact, that's what sparked emancipation of women as suddenly they were in charge and outnumbered the men.

[pisskop]

iirc, they still do in many places :p
  Heres waiting for the baby boomer generation to move on.  but thats something of a mixed bag for me.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I am not strongly opposed to you, deboche. I just said that some people would be. My DF close combat teams are all male because of the risk of orphaned or pulped babies otherwise. In humans, who have sexual dimorphism, it makes even more sense.

I am in favour of women being allowed to serve as along as they pass the exact same training as the men and do NOT get pregnant unplanned. If some women are capable of doing this, it is fine to use them in battle; nowadays many armies in richer countries have recruitment problems and do not usually lose enough troops to dent the population, regardless of gender. Notably, Israel, with its very small population and number of available recruits, was forced to use women soldiers extensively and has not had too many problems with it. Eritrea did the same during their war with Ethiopia, since they needed everyone to help in a war with a country of over 10 times as many people, but unsurprisingly still lost given the vast differences in manpower and resources.

[Headless]

Deboche,  not calling you sexist.  You can run your imiganary charcters or sprites however you like in your game.  My original comment was about a game system that was structured by a specific method of thought, and in turn supported that kind of thought.  Some of the discussion suggests that the game system didn't as strongly support that way of thinking as originally supposed.

About men being stronger.   Neither men nor women have a set strengh, there is a broad range of strenghs.  Women in the middle are stronger than men at the low end.  So better hand to hand soldiers.

About runners, current science is looking for cultural instead of genetic reasons for dominance in those events. 

[Urist Tilaturist]

Dwarves would just use good old booze for anaesthetics. Hospital patients should be given alcohol anyway - deprivation should only be a punishment for criminals.

[Graknorke]

I think a more in-depth medicine system is planned. It might involve stuffing patients full of opium derivatives, who knows.