Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Cryxis: What's wrong with being an angel? They seem to have choice/free will just as we do. They have personalities, and don't seem like mindless robots to me. They decided to rebel, unless you believe God made them decide to rebel? Satan, IIRC, is an angel that chose a different path to what God wanted.

As such, angels seem to be as capable of having a real relationship with God as we are, if not moreso given that they can actually perceive him, unlike us.

HAD. They had free will. After the fall it was taken away now they are all just mindless robots stuck on whichever side they were on prior to god locking their minds.
Also just a side note, the reason satan reveled is because he was gods most beautiful creation and he felt that he needed a place equaly to or above god so he got IIRC 1/3 of the angels to start an uprising and it didn't work

[TD1]

So, angels were just like us, then because they didn't use their free will the way he wanted them to, he took it away. This sounds like it was never free will in the first place- there were boundaries. When humans mistreated their free will, he sent a flood to kill them all bar one family. Again, this doesn't sound like free will.

But I digress. If angels could have free will in heaven, still have a relationship with God, then why couldn't we?

Also, a separate question: If they were frozen in their post-rebellion mindset, does that not mean they maintain their relationship with God, they just can't change it? Those that understood God then still understand him, as he supposedly doesn't change. If this is possible, then why couldn't it be done for humans? The purpose of free will is to build relations with God, and yet arguably angels have a relationship with God without the free will.

[Arx]

Cryx, do you realise there is no Biblical basis for the stuff about angels?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Cryx, do you realise there is no Biblical basis for the stuff about angels?

I could have sworn there was some
Any how I'm going off of my youth pastor and church pastor's preachings.


They can't have the same real relationship because they no longer have that free will though, sure they can understand him and worship him as they did but they don't have the choice to which takes away the free will.
And ya I agree it's kinda free will till god can't stand it anymore and just snaps.
But then again it is free will now since we are kinda being worse than they were back then but god isn't killing us like he did then, probably because of his promise to not do something like that ever again....

[TD1]

Cryxis: They had free will. With this Free Will, they garnered knowledge of God. God is not subjective- He doesn't change (though the differences in the Old/New Testaments would suggest otherwise). As such, their info. on God is up-to-date for all eternity. They then stay in this perfect state that He wanted them to be in.

Also, God let the angels have Free Will in heaven- why not us. The opportunity to exercise Free Will there is the same as the opportunity here. Why were we subjected to torture, and they weren't?

Also, Arx's comment on Cryxis' view not being Biblical is intriguing.
All Christians: What does the Bible actually say on the topic of angels?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

They don't have free will anymore though is what I'm trying to say they aren't all...... Ya know what I don't feel like argueing this today, today's already crappy enough I'm done with this.

[UXLZ]

So, angels were just like us, then because they didn't use their free will the way he wanted them to, he took it away. This sounds like it was never free will in the first place- there were boundaries. When humans mistreated their free will, he sent a flood to kill them all bar one family. Again, this doesn't sound like free will.

But I digress. If angels could have free will in heaven, still have a relationship with God, then why couldn't we?

Also, a separate question: If they were frozen in their post-rebellion mindset, does that not mean they maintain their relationship with God, they just can't change it? Those that understood God then still understand him, as he supposedly doesn't change. If this is possible, then why couldn't it be done for humans? The purpose of free will is to build relations with God, and yet arguably angels have a relationship with God without the free will.

The concept of Free Will (as we believe it to be, at least,) is essentially an illusion anyway. Something like God negates it by Its mere existence. However, mere illusion though it may be, it is still 'real' to us. (Humans, that is.) Depending on how insane you want to go with the real boundaries of the 'Omnipotence + Omniscience' combo, God can also be interpreted as having no free will of Its own. Similar to how we may watch a movie for the second or third time, It knows what is going to happen, even Its own actions, but is powerless to change them.

That's just an interesting interpretation of some small part of 'God', anyway, and I believe it goes against the fundamental belief of what the 'God' commonly described actually is, regardless. (The ultimate Gary Stu)

All (who believe a 'God(s)' is real):
Where do your think your 'God(s)' came from originally? Was It simply 'always there', or was there an actual creation?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

God was there before everything, before time and before creation since he created everything; time, the laws of the universe, the material it's made of, how the material works, and all the tid bits in between.

[MonkeyHead]

God was there before everything, before time and before creation since he created everything; time, the laws of the universe, the material it's made of, how the material works, and all the tid bits in between.

You cant quite see how "unsatisfying" an answer this is, can you?

[Arx]

All Christians: What does the Bible actually say on the topic of angels?

Very little.

They appear like men in the Old Testament, but they appear in some form that is clearly terrifying in the New Testament, as every instance I can think of of their appearance opens with "Do not be afraid".

There are references to angels with four sets of wings; with one set, they traditionally hide their faces.
The angel Michael ("like God") assisted someone in overcoming the Prince of Persia to reach Daniel to explain a vision. He is also referred to as the angel of battle in other places. He is the only angel ever referred to as an archangel.
The angel Gabriel ("like man") is a messenger.
I could not find reference to any further named angels that were certainly angels.
There are fallen angels, but they are bound and awaiting Judgment Day.
Ezekiel 1 describes some angels.

There is more than I expected in the Bible, but not much. I don't think I've mentioned everything here.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

It answered his question,"was your god there before everything or were they created"
I answered my god was before everything and feared everything, how does that not answer the question that was asked.

[UXLZ]

God was there before everything, before time and before creation since he created everything; time, the laws of the universe, the material it's made of, how the material works, and all the tid bits in between.

You cant quite see how "unsatisfying" an answer this is, can you?

I was looking for opinions, not a scientific explanation. That answer is fine (at least, for me). Even from a non-religious standpoint the creation of All That Is is a kind of an iffy topic. The true understanding that something has simply existed forever, or that something was simply created from true, utter nothingness is basically incomprehensible to humans. That the universe simply sprang from nothingness, or was always there, or that God sprang from nothingness then created the universe, or was always there and then created the universe, they are all equally impossible to comprehend. God just adds another factor into the equation.

[TheDarkStar]

All people:

According to your respective religions/personal beliefs, what is the meaning of life?

To become like God (or at least, to progress on that route because it won't be finished in this life).

All (who believe a 'God(s)' is real):
Where do your think your 'God(s)' came from originally? Was It simply 'always there', or was there an actual creation?

He went through some set of experiences like us before he was God, becoming God in the process.

[UXLZ]

He went through some set of experiences like us before he was God, becoming God in the process.

Ah, do you prescribe to the 'The purpose of life is to make us more God-like, whereupon eventually we will create our own universe to do likewise, and so the cycle continues' train of thought?
That kind of interpretation paints God more so as simply an advanced life form rather than the current spiritual one. Perhaps more like another 'stage' of our life cycle.

'Newborn' -> 'Infant' -> 'Toddler' -> 'Child' -> 'Teenager' -> 'Young Adult' -> 'Middle Adult' -> 'Elderly' -> 'Death' -> 'Reincarnation' -> 'Repeat innumerable times' -> 'God'

Perchance you have read The Egg?

[Arx]

All (who believe a 'God(s)' is real):
Where do your think your 'God(s)' came from originally? Was It simply 'always there', or was there an actual creation?

Here's my perspective (it's worth noting, in general, that I'm a liberal Methodist from a generally cynical and intelligent religious family):

John 1:1-3, in the Greek, reads "en arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos." (I can't find a decent online Greek Bible, sorry. Only the transliteration.)

"In the beginning was (the) reason, and (the) reason was with God, and (the) reason was God."

The Greek logos denotes thought or reason and speech. It seems to me that therefore God would be the first thing to exist. There can be no universe without reason. Reason is what brought the universe into being as something comprehensible. The internal thought, logos, became the external word, logos.

This is a little bit speculative, and I'm not sure it answers all of my own questions.

It's also worth noting that no version of the beginning of the universe escapes the old lady's "turtles all the way down."