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Author Topic: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?  (Read 5506 times)

Foxite

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Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« on: December 13, 2014, 11:56:04 am »

Apparently, my civ declared war on the goblins weeks after my fort was founded. Now I am getting sieges every 2 seasons, which is quite fun.

The first siege was a band of 15 goblins. Nothing a militia of 30 can't kill.
The second one was a motherfucking army of 85 goblins and 30 trolls. I can't possibly fathom how a militia of 40 steel-clad dwarves could kill them all, but they did.
The most recent siege, the third, was a company of 50 goblins. Which is strange as AFAIK sieges should only get bigger with every new siege.

Am I slowly killing the goblin civ, or are they just giving up?
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 12:55:33 pm »

They have soldiers elsewhere, and each soldier has to actually be pulled from a pool of goblins.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 01:13:20 pm »

Apparently, my civ declared war on the goblins weeks after my fort was founded. Now I am getting sieges every 2 seasons, which is quite fun.

The first siege was a band of 15 goblins. Nothing a militia of 30 can't kill.
The second one was a motherfucking army of 85 goblins and 30 trolls. I can't possibly fathom how a militia of 40 steel-clad dwarves could kill them all, but they did.
The most recent siege, the third, was a company of 50 goblins. Which is strange as AFAIK sieges should only get bigger with every new siege.

Am I slowly killing the goblin civ, or are they just giving up?

Sieges should only get bigger? Not if the goblins are all dead. You've killed most of them.

Goblins are too weak now compared to dwarves, but expecting them to send bigger waves of easily killed soldiers is not the solution. The gulf of combat ability between legendary dwarves and goblins needs to close, and goblins need to be able to destroy walls and otherwise destroy the player's fortifications. Since even 10 steel clad dwarves can destroy a marsh titan, it is not surprising that 40 could rout any feasible number of goblins.

Generally, everything that is not a dwarf needs a bit of a buff (goblins having better training and equipment, beasts not fainting after having a toe broken and generally not being bisected by swordsdwarves), and the abilities of legendary dwarves need to be reined in a bit. Cutting off a goblin's head in one strike is acceptable. A titan, less so.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 01:48:47 pm »

Size should give a defense bonus, like it used to, not as much, to the point of a dragon being 101% invulnerable to damage, but so much that they'd be hard to kill. Legendary performs as it should. Boost the base stats for goblin soldiers, have them wear an entire uniform, consisting of high/low boots, socks, greaves/chain leggings, mail shirt/breastplate, gauntlets+mittens, a cloak, a helm/cap, hood and buckler/shield. Have captains have greaves, mail shirt+breastplate, helm, hood, two cloaks, shield, gauntlets and mittens, a superior quality weapon, and much better skills, maybe great. Then the things like civ leaders and generals should be legendary in all skills, full iron and leather masterwork suits, and maybe a huge pain resistance.
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Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum
I threw night creature blood into a night creature's heart and she pulled it out and bled to death.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
Quote from: NJW2000
If any of them are made of fire, throw stuff, run, and think non-flammable thoughts.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 02:08:55 pm »

Creatures full of adrenaline in a life or death combat should never faint from a broken toe, regardless of whether or not they are faction leaders. The whole "gives in to pain" mechanic should only really happen after the fight is over as casualties are brought for medical treatment (or not, depending on the incompetence of the fort owner). Generals are not intrinsically different from anyone else, and certainly not always the best soldiers. They may have just bought or inherited their commissions and be easier to kill than the average soldier, though they should really get steel gear.

I do not want to see legendary dwarves cutting titans with thick shells in half. If this is only done by strengthening the titans, then this is fine, but legendary dwarves are plain overpowered at the moment. Feasibly, a short sword will not chop a titan in half in one strike, regardless of the strength of the striker, because it is not long enough.

I would like to see the ability of dwarves to fight beasts reduced to sensible levels, and allow beasts to destroy some walls, in exchange for removing the trapavoid nonsense where beasts just walk through masterwork traps unscathed instead of actually...avoiding them by smashing a nearby wall or not going through them at all. Trapavoid should be trap-avoid, not trap-immune.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 02:11:22 pm by Urist Uristurister »
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 02:11:17 pm »

Anything but a Forest or Mountain titan is pathetic by default.
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I threw night creature blood into a night creature's heart and she pulled it out and bled to death.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
Quote from: NJW2000
If any of them are made of fire, throw stuff, run, and think non-flammable thoughts.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 02:11:42 pm »

...and it should not be. Can we agree on that?

The titan was a marsh titan, and it did manage to kill many livestock animals, a few marksdwarves, and elf merchants, and send the fort into a devastating tantrum spiral, but it was incapable of opposing my steel-clad warriors.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 02:19:18 pm »

I never said they should be. I was agreeing with you.
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Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum
I threw night creature blood into a night creature's heart and she pulled it out and bled to death.
Quote from: Eric Blank
Places to jibber madly at each other, got it
Quote from: NJW2000
If any of them are made of fire, throw stuff, run, and think non-flammable thoughts.

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 05:30:36 pm »

That is good to read.
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utunnels

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 10:08:07 pm »

It depends on their skills, and equipments.
In my previous fortress, my hammer lord killed a whole sqaud of goblins on his own without receiving a scratch.

But, I don't think increasing their amount works well.

1) More units = lower fps = less fun.
2) Well trained+well equipped defenders can kill goblins ten times of their amount
3) Too many goblinites.
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mndfreeze

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 10:16:58 pm »

I agree with the more units = drastic drop in fps and excess garbage junk being left behind, furthering fps drop.

I really wish some heavy optimization could be done to drastically speed the game up so more units and larger armies and seiges could be an answer, but currently if anything I wish it would be balanced more and smaller seiges and units are needed. 
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utunnels

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 10:31:36 pm »

For those who rely heavily on traps (me, for example), amount doesn't really pose a threat.
 :P Maybe when df have siege weapons which can breach walls and smash traps, or when the enemies can dig tunnels, I will consider keeping a big military.
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bluephoenix

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2014, 04:32:30 am »

For those who are complaining about the gives in to pain thing, you need to go to your tissue_template_default file in your raws and lower the number of pain receptors bone has.
A lot of people are suspecting that Toady accidentally gave bones too many receptors, thus making everything that gets its bones chipped or broken give into pain.

(While you are at it, you might want to add "HEALING_RATE:1000" to cartilage and nails so that they can actually heal, atm they are missing the healing rate tag.)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 04:34:15 am by bluephoenix »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2014, 06:42:01 am »

I can accept gives in to pain for having all 4 limbs broken, but not for a single toe in a life or death battle.
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bluephoenix

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Re: Is the goblin civ getting weaker?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 07:36:43 am »

I can accept gives in to pain for having all 4 limbs broken, but not for a single toe in a life or death battle.
That's why you need to decrease the amount of pain receptors in the bone, if you put in 17 for example instead of the current 50 value, they will pass out after having several large bones broken instead of from chipping a toes bone.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 07:44:59 am by bluephoenix »
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