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[pisskop]

So, I've been doing some thinking.  How big do you think the civilized vanilla races really are?

Is 70.000cm³ really the size of an irl human of modern times?

Spoiler: Ranty part (click to show/hide)

I'm assuming of course its a white European male of indistinct origin, but it could easily be a black man.
  Since its an average, I would be interested in what you thought.

If so, consider that body-size is comparable to body-mass, especially since spatial dimensions in DF are so wonky.  In fact, in cases like boogeymen I'd argue that body-mass is a better definition of what the tag [body_size] means.

Spoiler: Ranty piece (click to show/hide)

That makes dwarves either 6/7 (~12.5%) shorter or less 'bulky' than humans.  Is this right?  Im 180lbs, 5'11", slightly above average for an American.  Does that make a similar dwarf ~10% smaller than me (71-7.1=64 inches, or 5'4")  5'4" (162 cm) for a slightly above average dwarf?  Seems too tall.  That puts them at 160lbs too.

That goblins, elves, and dwarves share the same size (60.000cm) indicates they all roughly weight the same, but as I've lately been reviewing some unrelated material on the three they do not seem to have that much in common.

What gives?  What would a goblin size be in the traditional media if the human is weighed as 70k cm³?

[vjmdhzgr]

Well the way the game is set up dwarves and humans actually have the exact same body proportions so they're really just small humans. It's important to note though that a 1/7 decrease in volume is not a 1/7 decrease in height because since they're small humans they'd decreases in length and width too and changes to those would mean they can be taller and still have the same volume. Elves and goblins also have the same body proportions as humans in the game's code so they'd be the exact same size as dwarves. Then again, in the game's code their broadness is equal to their height so we're probably just supposed to use our imagination.

Also, 70.000 cubic centimeters is incredibly different from 70,000 cubic centimeters. Also another minor thing you added an extra o to bogeymen. Finally I think goblins vary widely based on depictions being as small or maybe even smaller than what kobolds are sometimes, other times just being thinner than dwarves.

[pisskop]

Well the way the game is set up dwarves and humans actually have the exact same body proportions so they're really just small humans. It's important to note though that a 1/7 decrease in volume is not a 1/7 decrease in height because since they're small humans they'd decreases in length and width too and changes to those would mean they can be taller and still have the same volume. Elves and goblins also have the same body proportions as humans in the game's code so they'd be the exact same size as dwarves. Then again, in the game's code their broadness is equal to their height so we're probably just supposed to use our imagination.

Also, 70.000 cubic centimeters is incredibly different from 70,000 cubic centimeters. Also another minor thing you added an extra o to bogeymen. Finally I think goblins vary widely based on depictions being as small or maybe even smaller than what kobolds are sometimes, other times just being thinner than dwarves.

So its a combination of height and width and length, and only changing their BP lengths would fix that?

70,000 and 70.000 get read the same way by the game: as invalid

---

So does Toady intend for the creature sizes to always be this way?   hmm.

[vjmdhzgr]

WEll the part of the code that determines body proportions is this
"   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]"
Those numbers being the exact same for humans, dwarves, elves, and goblins. I'm guessing the reason it's like that is for the in-game descriptions. If you changed the height numbers to something like 50:70:73:75:77:80:100 then when you looked at the description of what a dwarf looked like all of them would be called short except the very rare extremely tall dwarves whose height simply wouldn't be noted at all. It's the same things for broadness it bases the description with 100 as the standard no matter what the actual average is.

[Kilumanjaro]

So, I've been doing some thinking.  How big do you think the civilized vanilla races really are?

Is 70.000cm³ really the size of an irl human of modern times?
...snip...

well...  70K cm³ is enough volume to displace 70kg of water... assuming a body to be reasonably close to neutral buoyancy that 70kg (154 lbs) is pretty close to a 5'6" person of a fit build.  Sounds reasonable for period Mediterranean Europeans, a little small for the areas barbarians and northerners, but still big for modern Asian and Hispanic populations.

WEll the part of the code that determines body proportions is this
"   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]"
...snip...

These are percent modifiers to actual size based on a standard deviation bell curve...  so its only saying the tallest human will be 25% taller than the average, and the shortest will be 25% shorter.  There is nothing in the raws to actually determine the measured height or breadth of a given individual.  As far as I can tell, there is not even any such thing as a measure of length defined anywhere in the game.

[Putnam]

Also, 70.000 cubic centimeters is incredibly different from 70,000 cubic centimeters. Also another minor thing you added an extra o to bogeymen. Finally I think goblins vary widely based on depictions being as small or maybe even smaller than what kobolds are sometimes, other times just being thinner than dwarves.

Any countries labeled in green on this map write 7*10⁵ as 70.000

[vjmdhzgr]

Also, 70.000 cubic centimeters is incredibly different from 70,000 cubic centimeters. Also another minor thing you added an extra o to bogeymen. Finally I think goblins vary widely based on depictions being as small or maybe even smaller than what kobolds are sometimes, other times just being thinner than dwarves.

Any countries labeled in green on this map write 7*10⁵ as 70.000

Well that's confusing. What if you have 70.000.986? How do you tell what that would be? Also to make sure, that's most of the world not just Canada right?

[Putnam]

If by 70.000.986 you mean 7*10⁵+986^^-3, it's written as 70.000,986.

Canada is actually mixed, thus why it's blue-green instead of just green.

[pisskop]

WEll the part of the code that determines body proportions is this
"   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
      [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]"
...snip...

These are percent modifiers to actual size based on a standard deviation bell curve...  so its only saying the tallest human will be 25% taller than the average, and the shortest will be 25% shorter.  There is nothing in the raws to actually determine the measured height or breadth of a given individual.  As far as I can tell, there is not even any such thing as a measure of length defined anywhere in the game.

I could change those to have the center of the curve placed at any number I choose.  The description page would list

   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:95:100:108:110:112:120:125]

Would make the average 110% of their given value.  The tallest human here would still only be 25% larger, but the average would be 10% larger than the default value.  Yes?  In the description I would expect the actual average (110) to be listed as 'above' average.

With that in mind, I could make modifications to them population in general, as well as perhaps some creative management of relsizes?


---

Now if I could figure out how big the gobbos, dwarves, and elves 'should' be, and/or how they should vary.  I want them more to balance each other out.

And to continue with implementing my own ideas of what the critters are.

[pisskop]

Soo, what are the differences between dwarves and elves and goblins, physiologically?

I set up some basic overall body size dimensions, but I have no clue what other changes to make insofar as relsizes, or what would have an impact where it matters; combat or worldgen.

[Matoro]

Soo, what are the differences between dwarves and elves and goblins, physiologically?

I set up some basic overall body size dimensions, but I have no clue what other changes to make insofar as relsizes, or what would have an impact where it matters; combat or worldgen.

Raws doesen't really tell much how races differ from each other, since every appearance modifier tells just variety inside the race. Imagination is probably the only way.

Dwarves are short and bulky, elves are tall (but not as tall as humans) and more slender. Goblins are somewhere between those. And kobolds are smaller than average dog.