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Author Topic: Transgender and Intersex Mod  (Read 39638 times)

smeeprocket

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2014, 05:57:57 pm »

but that was my point, it isn't about gender roles. Otherwise my story would have had a different ending.
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Transpersons and intersex persons mod for Fortress mode of DF: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10204

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samanato

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2014, 06:04:20 pm »

I was saying more, that dwarves wouldn't have the same biological sex-differences as humans, going by the standard fantasy lore. Though that can very well be subverted.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2014, 06:22:15 pm »

Spoiler: What the what... (click to show/hide)

I'm staying out of these threads from now on. Explained facts about how a game works, suddenly am an evil person who thinks all deviants eat babies.
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Ladygolem

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2014, 06:37:35 pm »

     I think the main flaw in the "adding something new" argument is, well, by adding the ability to differentiate between 'male' and 'female' dwarves, there already is one interpretation of the gender system. Here in the West, our culture treats the two as immutable opposites, with any 'deviance' seen as a bizarre exception; but to many other cultures, the decision to model only two possible sexes/genders would seem absurd.

     And that's only within the human species; many creatures have more, or less genders than we do. Clownfish freely switch between the two based on circumstance; some species of lizard have no males and reproduce solely by parthenogenesis. Bees, for instance, in practice have three genders: worker, drone and queen; to assign that the worker and the queen are both the same sex, despite having very little in common, i s mostly testament to the fact that most scientists come from cultures that follow the Western binary, or have adopted it due to colonialism, globalization, etc.

    Point being, genders beyond the simple 'cis man/cis woman' binary aren't 'extra' or 'superfluous'; 'male/female' isn't as default as you think, whether we're talking human culture or the animal kingdom at large.

   My 'ideal' solution as such would be to simply remove references to gender altogether from sentient beings (it being sort of required in animal husbandry). Married couples could produce children or not depending on any number of factors - maybe they're sterile/infertile, maybe they simply don't feel like having kids - 'incompatible reproductive systems' would be just one of many such factors. An individual's gender as such would be open to interpretation; it's not like it has any affect on a dwarf's behaviour, abilities, or personality beyond that. I do recognize this perhaps may be a tad extreme to some but hey, the fact that I exist at all is considered extreme to some so I'm not too bothered by that.

    If we're talking dwarf gender in other works, by the way, my favourite would have to be in the Glorantha setting. (King of Dragon Pass, etc.) Dwarves there were fashioned out of stone by an enormous creator god (Armok?) to maintain and preserve various massive machines, cities. etc. Each dwarf is made for a specific purpose, and is mad in such a way to reflect that. As such, they don't have 'sexes' or 'genders'; the specific 'equipment' one may have is seen as simply another way that dwarf has been specialized to their role. In DF terms, one would say a dwarf's primary identity, 'gender' even would be 'Engraver" or "Elite Macelord" or "Fishery Worker" if you're really, really unlucky.

PS. Grimlocke, no-one is calling you an evil baby-eater. Being called out on saying shitty things does not mean you are being 'attacked'. Just own up to your mistakes and apologize, maybe, or don't! I don't really care. This is sadly a very typical response and I simply do not have the energy to argue with people that don't care to listen.

cyberTripping

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2014, 07:17:24 pm »

If by "saying shitty things" = "clearly making a simple misunderstandjng" then yes grimlocke is a massive dick. All the points grimlocke made pardon the sex/gender mixup which is an UNDERSTANDABLE mistake hold just fine.

Removing genders is a noble goal but let's face it. That won't work out well just yet. Maybe when this progresses in the real world it would be fine, but for now its just too much of a clusterfuck to stray too far from the norm in a game like this.

And before I get bashed to hell for saying this, I'm going to let smeep and such know I'm a LGBT supporting liberal progressive and have most friends see eye to eye on it, hell most of my friends ARE lgbt. I'm just getting that out there before I get chewet out for being a barbaric Victorian.

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Grimlocke

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2014, 07:24:45 pm »

     I think the main flaw in the "adding something new" argument is, well, by adding the ability to differentiate between 'male' and 'female' dwarves, there already is one interpretation of the gender system. Here in the West, our culture treats the two as immutable opposites, with any 'deviance' seen as a bizarre exception; but to many other cultures, the decision to model only two possible sexes/genders would seem absurd.

     And that's only within the human species; many creatures have more, or less genders than we do. Clownfish freely switch between the two based on circumstance; some species of lizard have no males and reproduce solely by parthenogenesis. Bees, for instance, in practice have three genders: worker, drone and queen; to assign that the worker and the queen are both the same sex, despite having very little in common, i s mostly testament to the fact that most scientists come from cultures that follow the Western binary, or have adopted it due to colonialism, globalization, etc.

    Point being, genders beyond the simple 'cis man/cis woman' binary aren't 'extra' or 'superfluous'; 'male/female' isn't as default as you think, whether we're talking human culture or the animal kingdom at large.

   My 'ideal' solution as such would be to simply remove references to gender altogether from sentient beings (it being sort of required in animal husbandry). Married couples could produce children or not depending on any number of factors - maybe they're sterile/infertile, maybe they simply don't feel like having kids - 'incompatible reproductive systems' would be just one of many such factors. An individual's gender as such would be open to interpretation; it's not like it has any affect on a dwarf's behaviour, abilities, or personality beyond that. I do recognize this perhaps may be a tad extreme to some but hey, the fact that I exist at all is considered extreme to some so I'm not too bothered by that.

    If we're talking dwarf gender in other works, by the way, my favourite would have to be in the Glorantha setting. (King of Dragon Pass, etc.) Dwarves there were fashioned out of stone by an enormous creator god (Armok?) to maintain and preserve various massive machines, cities. etc. Each dwarf is made for a specific purpose, and is mad in such a way to reflect that. As such, they don't have 'sexes' or 'genders'; the specific 'equipment' one may have is seen as simply another way that dwarf has been specialized to their role. In DF terms, one would say a dwarf's primary identity, 'gender' even would be 'Engraver" or "Elite Macelord" or "Fishery Worker" if you're really, really unlucky.

PS. Grimlocke, no-one is calling you an evil baby-eater. Being called out on saying shitty things does not mean you are being 'attacked'. Just own up to your mistakes and apologize, maybe, or don't! I don't really care. This is sadly a very typical response and I simply do not have the energy to argue with people that don't care to listen.

So trying to help someone out by explaining how a game works and why is saying shitty things? I made a point out of just purely sticking to the games workings because I do not care for having discussions on the modding board like that. The only response I get is the OP putting words in my mouth and calling me some sort of bigoted arse, trying to put me up as a strawman for exactly that discussion.

The mistake I made is having dated information from version .34. Oops oh well, still playing catch-up for version .40 since I put DF on hiatus for quite some time.

For the bloody record, since everyone already made widespread assumptions about my opinions anyway, and since NOT explicitely stating this is apparently a way of getting nailed to a pole in the town square, I take zero issue with someone's gender or sexuality. They are things people are born with and which make up only a smaller part of their person. Whether they have a common garden variety of things or not, I don't frankly care. I judge people on their behaviour.

With that out of the way, you don't worry about any more 'shitty things' from me. Lord knows wouldn't want to offend someone with being wrong about the tissue layer system.
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King Kravoka

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2014, 07:30:03 pm »

Removing genders is going to be a pain, if possible, and it's redundant given that we already depict a society where every gender is completely equal even though nursing mothers have no right dragging them and their children into the heat of battle. Ugh, liberals.


We do need hermaphrodites though, allow me to make a hermaphroditic race and I'll be happy.
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cyberTripping

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2014, 07:33:35 pm »

Hermaphrodite sex would be good because then I could make War giant slugs, which are yes
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Ladygolem

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2014, 07:49:14 pm »

The "shitty thing" was equating trans people with "sex and pooping and things like that", claiming that it would lead to "Obok Meatgod". That is pretty shitty. And anyway, why is everyone up in arms about this? All I literally said was "hey could you not do that it's gross and demeaning". Why do people treat that as a some sort of vicious personal slander? You're not a victim here, no-on e is attacking you, no-one is making you feel unsafe. Why does a marginalized person standing up for themselves inevitably get seen as a intrinsically hostile act? It's exhausting.

Anyway, can we not devolve this thread into an argument about people's hurt feelings? We're all adults here, let's get back to the matter at hand, which is modelling gender systems within the DF framework, please!

Putnam

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2014, 07:51:59 pm »

The word "shit" is pretty vicious.

cyberTripping

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2014, 07:53:24 pm »

By misunderstanding I think he thought gender = sex, which means adding genitals which means adding more details and the like. Anyways, I agree with getting this back on track if only because there's a lot of science potential.
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Meph

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2014, 08:13:09 pm »

There is not much for science actually. As Putnam mentioned, there are no genders in the game, only biological sex. The only thing you can do is add a description for a fake-gender.

Grimlocke has done nothing wrong, and I'll abandon the thread now as well. Both Ladygolem and smeeprocket are hardly what I could call objective.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2014, 08:24:14 pm »

The "shitty thing" was equating trans people with "sex and pooping and things like that", claiming that it would lead to "Obok Meatgod". That is pretty shitty. And anyway, why is everyone up in arms about this? All I literally said was "hey could you not do that it's gross and demeaning". Why do people treat that as a some sort of vicious personal slander? You're not a victim here, no-on e is attacking you, no-one is making you feel unsafe. Why does a marginalized person standing up for themselves inevitably get seen as a intrinsically hostile act? It's exhausting.

Anyway, can we not devolve this thread into an argument about people's hurt feelings? We're all adults here, let's get back to the matter at hand, which is modelling gender systems within the DF framework, please!

My first post detailed what turned out to be the .34 gender mechanics, and the reason why Toady tends to stay away from expanding on them very much.

That post got responded to by someone grossly misinterpreting that last part. In my second post I detailed that part a bit more in the hopes of resolving the misunderstanding and returning to some semblance of maturity.

Which in turn also got completely bent out of shape and made out to be something it was not, at which point the OP kinda ran me out of goodwill.

Where exactly is the part of my equating trans people to anything at all? How am I marginalizing anything by explaining how a game and its maker work?

I'm all for mature discussions, but I will not stand for being made out to be a thing I despise for things I did not say. There would be a less of these unpleasant arguments if you and the OP in particular carefully read what people write and not jump at ghosts when someone is just trying to help you.

p.s. thanks for staying sane under this Meph.
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samanato

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2014, 08:39:03 pm »

I should go too.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Modding transgender sentients into the game
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2014, 11:17:30 pm »

... By which I mean, why does this happen?
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