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[smeeprocket]

I'm sorry if my questions sound really dumb. I went to the link, btw, and downloaded the file, but I'm not 100% sure on what I am doing. I'll experiment a bit.

[Meph]

would the sterile token go in the raws or would it have to be done within the game to each individual dwarf?

In the raws, into the castes that you want sterile.

If a creature lacks a gender tag, its automatically a "she". No real reason for that. For "it" you need to use NO_GENDER, instead of MALE or FEMALE. If you add both MALE and/or FEMALE and/or NO_GENDER, the last one will be taken, the rest ignored.

To make it a bit easier on you: This is my sterile code I use for priests. I wanted male priests and female nuns to be celibate, so I added it to their castes, I rewrote it a bit for you.

Put this into the caste you want to be sterile:

Code: [Select]

[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
      [CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
      [CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:100]
     [CDI:FREE_ACTION]
Put this into your interaction_whatever.txt

Code: [Select]

[INTERACTION:STERILE_DWARVES]
   [I_SOURCE:CREATURE_ACTION]
   [I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
[IT_CANNOT_TARGET_IF_ALREADY_AFFECTED][IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:CELIBACY]
   [IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
   [I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
[IE_TARGET:A]
[IE_IMMEDIATE]
[SYNDROME][SYN_CLASS:CELIBACY]
      [CE_ADD_TAG:STERILE:START:0]

[smeeprocket]

Awesome, thank you. I looked at the program you linked and am running through template.lng

I found descriptors for the dwarves (and my guess would be also other sentients.) Do I have to replace one? Can I just add one? Is there anyway to add one and designate it for a specific caste and to always be there for that caste?

can the no_gender pronouns be changed to they them their?

It seems like the pronouns only get used in descriptions, and I am wondering if that can be used to my advantage.

oh and can this be added in a seperate file, or since the dwarf and human and other sentient races are in other raw files, would those files have to be directly modified?

[Meph]

I hope you picked the template.lng I uploaded in my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3voxcgzxxnhupef/template.lng?dl=0

I found descriptors for the dwarves (and my guess would be also other sentients.) Do I have to replace one? Can I just add one? Is there anyway to add one and designate it for a specific caste and to always be there for that caste?

The descriptors in the template.lng I'd leave alone, as they are used for every creature. You have to add new ones in the descriptor_shape_standard.txt, and add fitting parts into each caste. Its a bit complicated, but essentially you want to add a new thing called "gender" to each caste, just like they have descirptors of voice or eyes or hair. Thats NOT in the template.lng.

You can change the no_gender pronouns in the template.lng, by replacing the "it" with "they" for example.

You are not changing any Raws if you use the program, you are patching the .exe. You ALSO have to change the creature_standart.txt, but you can only change dwarves, you dont need to alter other creatures.

[smeeprocket]

okay just to clarify, regarding changing pronouns, the transfemale caste should be a female caste with either no ability to reproduce or the ability of males to reproduce. So, in either case, the first line of their description should be something like "She is transsexual and identifies as a female." or just "She is transfemale."

Same sexuality percentage preferences.

The tricky part seems to come from gender fluid and intersex.

Oh for intersex, assuming you had intersex dwarves that identified as female or male I could use that descriptor, as well, but have it be like "She is intersex, and identifies as female" with the ability to reproduce, since usually, intersex individuals have one working set of reproductive organs (both working is very rare, I think.)

But it seems like either I have to change all instances of it to they, or genderfluid won't work.

[smeeprocket]

well I want to add these as castes within the sentient races such as dwarves, humans and elves. It seems best to have them as separate castes. The problem is, if I have a dwarf raw in one file with two castes, and a dwarf raw in another file with two different castes, is that going to break the game or will they merge?

[Meph]

You know, I think the easiest way would be this:

Ignore all the "he is" and "she is" and the entire string dump replace thingy, make a ton of castes (they go into the creature_standard.txt file, right under the normal MALE and FEMALE castes that already exists, AND NO WHERE ELSE!), and do it manually.

Because there is a caste description and you can just write word for word what you'd like. If you give me a list with the castes you want, I'd even do it. Its childs play, from a modders perspective. You just have to explain what exactly the titles mean, because I honestly dont know what sex a transfemale would have, or what exactly genderfluid or intersex means.

It would look something like this:

Code: [Select]

[CASTE:FEMALE]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]

[CASTE:MALE]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]

[CASTE:FEMALE_FLUID]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as genderfluid.]

[CASTE:MALE_FLUID]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as genderfluid.]



[CASTE:FEMALE_TRANS]
[FEMALE]
[MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as male.]

[CASTE:MALE_TRANS]
[MALE]
[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]
[DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry. This dwarf identifies as female.]

[smeeprocket]

my one concern is I want to make this available to everyone and I was hoping I could get away with separate files just so that it's a copy and paste thing, and not a modding the raws thing.

Okay, intersex  can mean someone has both sets of genitalia. AFAIK, the likelihood of both working is slim, so an intersex individual might identify as male or female and we could attach their working reproductive organs to that, easily enough. However, they could also identify as genderfluid, sort of in between, a third gender. The concept of a third gender exists in multiple culture (like Hijra as I mentioned) though usually for hijra it actually refers to transfemales, and they use the feminine pronoun. I believe. I haven't done too much homework on hijra itself, so this is based on light reading.

This dwarf identifies as transfemale or this dwarf identifies as transmale would be the lines you are looking for for transsexuals. Since we can't do a swap on reproductive abilities without having a gender that uses the pronouns for those reproductive organs, the castes should be sterile.

Note Intersex can also be someone who does have one set of genitalia but does not fit within the confines of the gender they identify with. This part is newer to me so if I make mistakes, I apologize in advance.


http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex


ambiguous genitalia as stated in the link is another example.

What this should translate to in dwarf fortress is merely "She is intersex, and identifies as female." It's important that the appropriate pronoun is used. the pronoun for what the individual identifies as is always used, never the pronoun that matches just their genitalia or reproductive abilities.

So intersex could also potentially be sterile.

in a description for a transfemale dwarf, there should never be him his or he. In the raws, they would have the [FEMALE] tag based on your advice, since otherwise it doesn't play out like that.

I really dislike having to use the sterile option, I just don't think I can modify it any other way. I wonder if I could use an external script with the castes themselves to make it possible for a female partner of transfemale and some genderfluid dwarves to potentially become pregnant.

genderfluid has to have the they them their pronouns. This seems like an all or nothing thing per your advice. I really want to add it, and as much as my grammar nazi mind freaks out seeing plural pronouns used in any other context, using they them their in place of it and its in all contexts seems like the best, if a clunky, solution.

So genderfluid would, frustratingly, have to have the [NO_GENDER] tag? Or did you say that uses the feminine? And then we have this problem where that caste wouldn't ever gain a lover or spouse due to sexuality not including non gendered individuals.

I am not 100% fluent in transgender and intersex issues, btw. So if I have said something wrong, hopefully someone can correct me.

[Meph]

Well, you cant add a new gender to the game, there is only male, female and no gender (golems, contructs, demons, etc)

You can add descriptions, which are purely cosmetic.

You can replace all gender specific articles with gender neutral articles. But you cant have both. Male dwarf would be "they", female dwarf would be "they", and any other gender/sex would be "they". This is also purely cosmetic.

You can make anyone sterile as you like.

You cant get away with separate files. But you can still copy paste them into and replace the old files, no problem. Works with vanilla DF, doesnt work with other mods.

the pronoun for what the individual identifies as is always used, never the pronoun that matches just their genitalia or reproductive abilities.

That is fine and well in the real world, but that wouldnt work in DF. The player wouldnt notice, but the tags behind a female dwarf who identifies as male would be MALE. The dwarf would literally be a sterile male, shows ingame as male, with a notice "this dwarf is female, but identifies as male", and cant give birth. If thats fine with you, that would work.

I assume "it" for genderfluid people would be an insult? The "it" "It" and "its" are line 53, 54, and 59 in the string dump I uploaded. You can add "they/their" in its place.

[smeeprocket]

yes it would be very derogatory. I assume changing that will change all instances of it and then they would need the no_gender tag? I thought that used a feminine pronoun? Or if I just don't add a gender tag at all will that do it?

I wouldn't use "this dwarf is female, but identifies as male" because they aren't female, they are male. They have female reproductive organs, is all. Biologically, some research has been done on this and there are noticeable differences on some levels between a trans people and a cis-gendered people with the same reproductive organs. Also, saying they are female would be derogatory in and of itself. Really, even saying they are biologically female would be derogatory. So "He is transsexual and identifies as male" would be the best line.

For genderfluid, would they be able to get into relationships? Because with sexuality as it is, it doesn't seem like it would work.

oh I forgot to answer a question, yes tag them with the gender they indentify as. Since that seems to be the only way to get the system to use the proper pronouns. Which means they will have to be sterile.

I wonder if a script could affect that part.

[Ladygolem]

I believe NO_GENDER makes the game refer to the creature as 'it' which is worse

Other than that, smeeprocket, you're pretty much spot on in terms of representing trans people - I can see you've done your research! Best of luck with the project and let me know if you have any other questions.

[smeeprocket]

I believe NO_GENDER makes the game refer to the creature as 'it' which is worse

Other than that, smeeprocket, you're pretty much spot on in terms of representing trans people - I can see you've done your research! Best of luck with the project and let me know if you have any other questions.

Many thanks, it means a lot.

We were discussing changing instances of "it" to "they" universally.this will be grammatically incorrect in other instances, but will work fine for its purpose, which is to make sure genderfluid and such is represented properly (and I'll happily take the grammatical pain of seeing non gendered species referred to in plural for the benefit of having a more diverse range of genders.)

The problem now for me seems to be, would these genderfluid individuals be able to have relationships, because dwarven sexuality seems to be specifically bisexual, showing interest only in females, males, or both.

[Putnam]

The main problem with all this is that the game has no notion of gender whatsoever, so it's kinda trying to add an entirely new feature... which is usually pretty impossible. It's a tough nut to crack.

[smeeprocket]

yea I really really want to do this, though. If at all possible.

gender does seem very abstract.

One argument made against it is dwarves don't really have gender roles so a transperson wouldn't have societal roles to lean towards. But I think transgender individuals would still exist, as it is definitely biological.

There was a rather sick psychiatrist who ended up doing a study on a male patient. As an infant, during an attempted circumcision with a laser (jesus christ why a laser!?) his penis was cut off. The psychiatrist suggested the parents, who sought him out for counseling on the matter, have surgery done and treat the boy as if he were a girl.

This did not go well. He had a lot of psychological problems dealing with it. He was very much not female, regardless of any changes in genitals. The doctor kept telling them to continue doing this though, and tragically, it led to the boy's suicide when he was a young adult.

So there is more there than just societally enforced gender roles.

[samanato]

The caveat is that dwarves aren't humans, and in most fantasy settings male and female dwarves are almost identical in appearance and behaviour. Tolkien's dwarven women have beards, and even more extremely, Discworld's dwarves are so alike, it's considered rude to ask someone's gender.

Toady's dwarves do have some sexual dimorphism (but even then, he gives the option of bearded women), and obviously only women bear children, but they all otherwise have the same physical stats, and they hack up goblin sieges, dodge into volcanos and kill people to make a legendary artifact exactly the same. Then again, gender roles and differences in general are not a thing yet, even among humans.