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Author Topic: Plump Helmet Substitute  (Read 3553 times)

Fenrir

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2008, 01:40:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by valcon:
<STRONG>digging underground is a science,

if you don't understand the proper elements of soil, geology, physics and structure stability during weather and load bearing structures, you guys are gonna get killed a collapsed tunnel dug 4 feet under your moms garden.  

seriously ... do not do this.

[ January 02, 2008: Message edited by: valcon ]</STRONG>



Of course! I'm not saying that I'm going to grab a pick and start smacking some random cliff face with it! This is entirely possible.
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Fenrir

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2008, 05:13:00 pm »

The more I think about it, the more I feel like our time would be better spent playing the game. A DF cult that live in a real-life fortress would be cool, though. Maybe we could organize some kind of LARP instead.
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Dreamer

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2008, 05:17:00 pm »

It sounds like you're going for more of a fallout shelter.  It's entirely possible, but the technology and development is obscure and expensive.  You'd have to have a very good idea of what you're doing before you tried it out, meaning having to research tons of information that is obscure or come up with your own leaps of logic, and having some testing phases (Living as you would in the Vault).  There's a lot to do, but with enough money and planning it sounds like it should be possible.

Food shouldn't be a problem, as long as it is stored properly and there's enough of it.  There are websites out there that help deal with food storage, I believe.  It's just a major investment.  Crop seeds should also be kept handy, for when you break into the open.

Water is more tricky.  Storing it can be a problem, since there's sometimes little things that get into it while it sits there (Boiling and osmosis, if you can afford it, fixes that though).  It's just large and bulky.  Humans need a large amount of water if they're going to survive any given amount of time.  You might consider tapping into a resevoir, or making one yourself, such as the one in NORAD.

Electricity is the kicker, though, 'cause we all want to play Dwarf Fortress while we're down there.  Your own powerplant would be best, but that requires constant maintenaince that might be a bit much for seven people (Or whoever else decides to delve with you).  You might just want to hook up to the outside and have a generator or two standing by (With lots of fuel) in case the world gets nuked or something.  I believe lights can also be used to grow plants, if you do end up with enough spare energy, but then fertile soil becomes a problem.

Have lots of candles standing by, of course, toiletries, a very large septic tank (Maybe even one of the ones that returns waste to nature - Dry toilets may be a good idea, as well, since water is precious), somewhere to put trash...  It'd be crazy expensive, and require a lot of effort, but I'm sure it could work.

Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little into this thing, too.  It really is a fascinating idea, though.

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Fenrir

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 05:26:00 pm »

I wasn't entirely clear about my inentions, the fallout-shelter thing is just a plus. We can leave the fortress, the dwarves do, so food isn't a problem. Eating fungi would just add to the experience.
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Armok

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2008, 06:09:00 pm »

The best would really be a underground river.
It provides air(it connects to the surface), food(cave fish), water(obviusly), cave space (dwarves make digging look easy), electricity (generator and waterwheel) and also beauty (have you seen the 'Planet Earth' section about caves?).
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beorn080

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 12:58:00 am »

Some of the relevant information you would need to do this would be hydroponics, milling, and fish raising.  In a sealed environment, fish are an excellent source of protein and they are relatively self sufficient with a proper tank setup.  In addition the algae they eat grows on the debris they leave after eating and helps to replenish the air.
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Armok

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2008, 02:04:00 am »

We are going to build a dwarf style fort not a lunar base. A river will do just fine, limestone mugs anyone?
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BurnedToast

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2008, 04:49:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
<STRONG>
As a side note, it'd be way cool if scientists began fiddling with plants to make them not require photosynthesis.  And aren't plants green because they photosynthesize?  Why then are underground plants in DF green?   :confused:</STRONG>

This is not really possible. Plants (like animals) require energy to survive, and if they are not getting it via photosynthesis then they will need to get it some other way (fungi generally 'eat' rotting material, slime molds 'eat' bacteria and such). The very small number of plants that exist right now that don't photosynthesize are all (as far as I know) parasitic, feeding on various fungi and other plants.

Also, none of the unmodded DF underground plants are green (unless quarry bushes are, I never grow them, so I don't remember offhand).

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Nil Eyeglazed

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 05:31:00 am »

Nonsense to they naysayers!

I heartily recommend constructed walls.  Mixing concrete is (relatively) cheap and is an effective way to build walls to deal with real world problems.

Beware of digging too deep!  There's nothing wrong with the first z-level.  Worse than demons, the deep holds polluted aquifers, impenetrable layers, and the risk of cave-ins and floods.

Doors on the ceiling have annoying properties.  Either they open down, and have a tendency to allow water in, or they open up.  What happens when you live underground without electricity, hermit-style, while your food stockpiles lie above, and a tree falls on your door?  You're hunting for vermin.

Z-1 with a door in a cliff-face is recommended.  If it opens inward, you can escape natural disasters, while still protecting against water flow.

Ventilation is important.  A U-shaped tube in your ceiling allows gas to pass while preventing flooding.

Much as in DF, the best place for "refuse" stockpiles is outside of your main fort.  You will probably be able to maintain adequate ventilation for oxygenation, but not adequate for fume dispersal.  While real-life humans can develop a high tolerance to miasma, what happens when you have to entertain a foreign liason?

Flooding is a very real problem in real-life DF.  Water levels rise and fall.  ALL building materials are permeable to water to a certain extent.  You will need a system to drain your fort that can be used in times of need, while preventing the upflow of water.  Experimentation in your own biome is important.  I would recommend building with the least permeable materials you can find, and designating a lower flood-level that is sealed from the main living area.  Unlike dwarves, you will find yourself using water for the purposes of hygeine and hydration.  You should consider water a refuse material, and locate water stockpiles far from your main fort.

Real life magma is very dangerous to work with, and you may have trouble locating a caldera.  Luckily, metal materials are easily available as a trade good.  However, it will occasionally get cold.  You will, on occasion, desire heat, typically when your floodgates fail.  Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to place any flaming goods in your stockpiles.  Do not place any flaming goods underground, or you may suffer very unhappy thoughts.

Cave-ins are relatively rare on upper Z-levels when working with constructed walls.  As with DF, do not allow any unsupported areas, or they will cave in.  In real life, however, constructed structures tend to shift.  A broad base of support will minimize shifts.  Build a floor with more surface area than your living area.

Conversely to dwarfs, humans tend to suffer from surface adaptation.  It is irreversible; it is probably too late for you, as a walking talking Homo sapiens, to prevent surface adaptation.  Life without the sun is unrecommended.  If you choose to live without the sun, you will find your bones weakening, and will probably suffer very strong unhappy thoughts.  This can be mitigated with Vitamin D supplements and lots of friends.  A pet is a good idea, but be aware that most pets suffer equally from surface adaptation.

In the seed I am familiar with, goblin and kobold civilizations are rare, as are megabeasts, and you are unlikely to experience problems with the above.  However, not all humans are friendly, even if you never seize any trade goods.  Ranged steel weapons are ridiculously overpowered, but very difficult to manufacture yourself, because of the bugs with magma.  However, ranged weapons are readily available as trade goods with most civilizations.    With a season of hauling tasks, you should be able to afford a weapon and ammunition, and even a novice is deadly.  Armor, in real life, is pretty much worthless.  Since you will suffer unhappy thoughts from sleeping with your weapon, you will want to rely most heavily on forbidding your doors during vulnerable times.  Very few humans are building destroyers.

And whatever else you do, remember that you probably won't get it right on the first try.  Don't worry!  Losing is fun!  Soon you'll be booze-bombing nobles like the best of the survivalist recluses!

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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...<P>It should be pretty fun though.

BurnedToast

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 07:22:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Nil Eyeglazed:
<STRONG>Long, extremely funny post snipped</STRONG>

Wow... pure comedy gold.

Special bonus points for the magma bug comment   ;)

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Asehujiko

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2008, 08:39:00 am »

How about migrating to iceland or something and use geothermal power for electricity? It can also power the filters needed to purify a polluted aquifier.

Alot of "moms basement" comments aside, my 3 rooms on z-1 of our house are more spacious then the rooms of my other family members combined, most reliable access to water(we live on a hill and our city's water pumps are FUBAR), the temperature is pretty much constant, even during summmer

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Btwilley

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 10:51:00 am »

My moms friend used to have this place in New Mexico that would work and solved many of your problems.

He owned a farmstead at the base of a Mtn. He didn't have running water there, but he did have a well with a windmill that pulled it from an underground source. He had 2-3 acres of fruit trees, cattle, goats, and other animsla on his land for sale. He did have a power line from the city, but he also kept a generator, because he was probally 45+mins from his nearest neighbor. He regularly went into the mtns to hunt then took his kills into town to be skinned/tanned/butchered. It rarely rained so flooding wasn't an issue.

One big thing to remember, in RL "vermin" are venimious snakes, black widows, and real wild animals. The last time I visited out there was probally 15 years ago and we took a few shots at a cougar while hiking less than a mile from his place.

If your really interested though I have nothing better to do for the summer...

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ekkud Egenid was supposedly killed by one of those "elephant" things the commoners have started dreaming up. I swear he killed himself just to piss me off with their lame fantasy.
I do wonder how he managed to break his own back though.

Fenrir

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2008, 11:43:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Btwilley:
<STRONG>
If your really interested though I have nothing better to do for the summer...</STRONG>

I'm afraid that I've not the money or the skills for such an undertaking at present. Maybe someday I will have both and we could do this, but not anytime soon.
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Quitschi1337

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 11:50:00 am »

To conduct photosynthesis plants need CO2, water, warmth and light of exclusive wavelenghts

well CO2 isnt a big problem as it is abundant i our atmosphere
and for warmth, slightly above 0°C is already enough so no problem as well (except you try to live in antarctica or similar~~)
the light, however, could be a problem, but ive heard about quiete succesful "artifical light surces", which can allow plants to grow below earth

to come to DF:
How would it be if Dwarfes could farm below ground with artifical light?

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Keizo

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Re: Plump Helmet Substitute
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 05:20:00 pm »

Nil Eyeglazed--epic post. If I could "bulb" this like I can at the Portal of evil forums I would.
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