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[surferin85]

Hey guys,

last time I played Dwarf Fortress was in the times of v0.34. But I got annoyed by the bug that a dwarven civilization which was extinct... still sends migrants and traders. BUT I got two 0.34-savegames in which no migrants and traders appeared (just the hard-coded ones [a feature in a bug?^^]). I loved these two saves...

Now I want to start with a new 0.40.19-fortress and I see the problem is still existing:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146100.0

But I saw posts here in the forum in which the king/queen gets elected in the first minutes after embark. So is it an indicator to see this accession to the throne in the beginning and see no migrants and traders in the future?

I don't want to change something in the DF data-logs because I am too inexperienced in it. Maybe someone of you can tell me which options I have to change to get a world where the extinct dwarven civ doesn't send me non-existing dwarves.

I try to upload the world I am talking about.

Download-Link: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10192

Spoiler: Population of the world (click to show/hide)

Civilized World Population: 9718 Goblins, 3 Kobolds | Total: 9721

Spoiler: World map (click to show/hide)

Here is one of the bug reports to the topic:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=670

Has anyone an idea how to "satisfy" my needs in a "trader and migrant"-free world?^^

[Col_Jessep]

It can be difficult to get enough children without migrants from what I've heard. But you could just set the population cap in the d_init file: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Population_cap
I think you will still get kids if you don't set a "strict population cap". Don't quote my on that though...

Other than that you need to think of resources you need that you can't easily make yourself early on. You will need animals for leather and bones, sand to make some glass and nets for silk. Without those you will run into trouble with moods. Best to bring some sheep and find the 1st cavern soonish. Dig a nice, large room on the same z-level as the first cavern to gather nets from cave spiders. You should only embark if you can find some sand and iron ore though.

A river is not a bad thing either. In my last fort I had a moody dwarf who wanted shells. On a mountain. In a desert!

You can trade some important things from human caravans.

[surferin85]

Hey Col_Jessep!

It can be difficult to get enough children without migrants from what I've heard.

For me this wasn't a problem after socializing the dwarves for a longer time, everyone was married and I had 80 dwarves (including many kids) in my last "working" (no migrants, no trader) 0.34-savegame.

Other than that you need to think of resources you need that you can't easily make yourself early on. You will need animals for leather and bones, sand to make some glass and nets for silk. Without those you will run into trouble with moods. Best to bring some sheep and find the 1st cavern soonish. Dig a nice, large room on the same z-level as the first cavern to gather nets from cave spiders. You should only embark if you can find some sand and iron ore though.

I had all these thoughts before. I am not doing this for the first time. But I fear that I can't create such a world again without getting the bug that migrants and traders will still show up. :/

You can trade some important things from human caravans.

Have a look at the World-info I posted. There are only goblins and some kobolds. In the near future of the 2nd century (year 125), there is only war.

A river is not a bad thing either. In my last fort I had a moody dwarf who wanted shells. On a mountain. In a desert!

There is a desert in the middle of the map. I'll embark there but first I want to make things sure about the trader-migrant-problem I am talking about. If there is no way to handle the problem I won't start a new world and have to wait for the update to fix this bug.

*edit* I thought it was a desert. It is a terrifying ocean/lake.

[Col_Jessep]

You are correct, in my "dead world" I got traders, nobles and migrant like nothing had happened. Unfortunately I don't know of a way to get no traders. But you can fix the d_init for migrants and not build a depot. It's not perfect but the wagons will bugger off and the other traders will not come closer unless you build a depot AFAIK.

It's tougher to get kids now because 25% of your dwarfs don't want any in 2014. They are gay, asexual, too drunk, whatever. They mustn't be farther apart than 10 years age-wise or they won't marry and have kids. It ain't easy becoming a dwarf parent these days. =3
With your original 7 and two small migration waves you might not get enough children - if any!
80 dwarfs should be fine in your current world. If you make a new world in 2014 at some point however you probably want like 30 or 40 dwarfs to start with.

[surferin85]

It's tougher to get kids now because 25% of your dwarfs don't want any in 2014.

Ah no problem, I will handle it.^^

You are correct, in my "dead world" I got traders, nobles and migrant like nothing had happened.

Hm so you tried to have a world without migration and traders too? You started in a world without any dwarf alive? Did the dwarves elect a king or a queen after the embark?

Maybe this can be an indicator for migrants and traders in the future.

[vjek]

If you don't want dwarven trade caravans to show up, just remove [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] from the /raw/objects/entity_default.txt in your save game folder.

If you don't want migrants, you could try setting both pop caps to zero or one.  There was a situation in 40.01 where if you didn't have pop cap entries, you got zero migrants, but I think Toady put in a fix for it whereby if you don't have entries, it uses the defaults, even if there are no default values.

If that doesn't work, island embarks or extreme cold/heat embarks might prevent them.  I only say might because it's worked in the past, but I haven't tested it in 40.19.

Barring all that, there are df_hack scripts that will prevent migrants.

[Lytha]

Migrants accept the population cap these days. Set it to 7, and no migrant will wander onto your map.

Caravans are a different matter, but I'll just try now what vjek suggested about entity_default.txt.

[surferin85]

If you don't want dwarven trade caravans to show up, just remove [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] from the /raw/objects/entity_default.txt in your save game folder.

If you don't want migrants, you could try setting both pop caps to zero or one.  There was a situation in 40.01 where if you didn't have pop cap entries, you got zero migrants, but I think Toady put in a fix for it whereby if you don't have entries, it uses the defaults, even if there are no default values.

Hm ok, that sounds interesting. I hoped for a way to do it without editing the settings. Does changing [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] have any other impact on the game?

Migrants accept the population cap these days. Set it to 7, and no migrant will wander onto your map.

I will try this out in combination with vjeks idea. But first I try this world to see what happens when I get a king or a queen with the embark. But I think I won't see any difference to the others who already looked for such a world.

But wait, Lytha... I use the Dwarf Fortress 40_19 Starter Pack r1... I read somewhere that my dwarves need to meet the liaison first... and then the cap will work. Or am I wrong?

[MDFification]

I think the reason for the traders/migrants with dead civs is that while all sites of a civ have been destroyed, not all of its population has been killed. I think I've heard of cases where someone actually found units from dead civs lurking about in caves, etc.

[smeeprocket]

I have a dead civ, and one of my people instantly became queen and I have no liaison, but I do have a caravan. I assume I will not actually gain a liaison, since that would be sent by the queen, and she is with me.

[surferin85]

I think the reason for the traders/migrants with dead civs is that while all sites of a civ have been destroyed, not all of its population has been killed.

That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about extinct civilizations.

Spoiler: Population of the world (click to show/hide)

Civilized World Population: 9718 Goblins, 3 Kobolds | Total: 9721

And there are traders and migrants coming from nowhere. If you embark on these worlds you get many "trader-migrants" later... like mentioned here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5930

I think I've heard of cases where someone actually found units from dead civs lurking about in caves, etc.

But the units you are talking about are listed in the world_sites_and_pops.txt unlike the unites we are talking about.

I have a dead civ, and one of my people instantly became queen and I have no liaison, but I do have a caravan. I assume I will not actually gain a liaison, since that would be sent by the queen, and she is with me.

Did you get migrants, smeeprocket? Or just traders?

[vjek]

... Hm ok, that sounds interesting. I hoped for a way to do it without editing the settings. Does changing [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] have any other impact on the game? ...

Yes, it prevents the liaison from visiting, so you will not get promoted to duchy, county, barony, in sequence.  However, I don't think that really matters in the long run, given the whole instant promotion to king/queen thing that happens now.

It may also affect when semi-megabeasts, megabeasts, and titans show up, if you have population limits set in your world for them to attack. Of course, if you set that to a low number (7 or less) then there's no issue.  The default is 80, though.

Aside from that.. can't think of anything off the top of my head.

[Col_Jessep]

You are correct, in my "dead world" I got traders, nobles and migrant like nothing had happened.

Hm so you tried to have a world without migration and traders too? You started in a world without any dwarf alive? Did the dwarves elect a king or a queen after the embark?

Maybe this can be an indicator for migrants and traders in the future.

Not just no dwarfs. No dwarfs, no humans, no elves, no goblins. I might have overdone the amount of nightcreatures and necromancers in the worldgen on that one. *cough*
After 50 years everybody was dead or undead. DF just created everything out of thin air. My expedition leader became queen after a couple of seconds after embark. Usually that takes some time but I guess it was an easy choice with just 7 dwarves on a dead world.

[Lytha]

But wait, Lytha... I use the Dwarf Fortress 40_19 Starter Pack r1... I read somewhere that my dwarves need to meet the liaison first... and then the cap will work. Or am I wrong?

I only just grabbed that LNP 40_19 r2 yesterday, but in the 40_16 one, migrants just accepted the pop limit and didn't appear in my fortresses at all, if it was set to 7.

The problem is that 7 is really the minimum. So if you want to do a hermit challenge and set it to 1, and murder 6 of your initial 7, then migrants will keep appearing anyway. Instead, you'll need to lock these 6 unwanted ones away somewhere and have them do their basic needs (plump helmet farm and either water or a still on repeat), while you play with your hermit.

And for the "only the starting 7 and their kids are allowed inside, multigeneration breeding!" approach... you'll find that with the new dwarf personalities and orientation issues, it is difficult to get 2 breeding pairs going with your small sample of 7. They seem much more likely to form multi-grudges or go into permanent "lover" relations than to get into the breeding state. I've taken to allowing up to 5 migrants in to increase the odds a bit, but even then nothing is guaranteed.



But seriously. Yay for not having to build a migrant atom smasher before first summer anymore.