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Author Topic: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates  (Read 7136 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2014, 02:37:46 am »

Fairly often, and animals get away too.  This isn't by any means a hypothetical concern - as Reelya said the medical implications are real, and in addition condors are dying from lead poisoning due to bullets.

I'd also point out that bismuth is not the only alternative to lead.  Even if it were though I wouldn't really care to be honest, "It's convenient" is never a good reason to continue fucking up the environment and people with a neurotoxin (that's why lead paint and petrol were banned).
http://basc.org.uk/lead/
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2014, 02:38:34 am »

Leafsnail:  Not what I said.  I said that bismuth was a perfectly acceptable alternative; just that it was too cost prohibitive.  Requiring use of bismuth projectiles will relegate current projectile weapons, which have almost a century of refinement in engineering behind them to make them as safe to operate as possible, into luxury only goods, which most people (especially people in rural areas) will simply not be able to afford to own or use.

The use of alternative metals for projectiles carries inherent risks, regardless of the weapon they are being fired from. (Traditional or improvised.)  Since the firearm *will* be damaged by these materials (A gun barrel CANNOT be hard metal!! It has to be able to flex with the gas compression curve of the detonation inside, or it will explode like a bomb!) then there is no logical reason to insist upon owning "safe" firearms, because they wont be able to exist due to limitations in material science.

This leads to the disposable guns.

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Leafsnail

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2014, 02:46:34 am »

It's not what you said, but it seems to be the conclusion you're driving at.  Even if replacing lead bullets results in a major technical difficulty that will lead to disposable guns (which seems highly unlikely because a lot of other countries and states heavily restrict lead ammunition and no such thing has happened, but whatever) I do not think that justifies the continued release of a serious toxin into the environment.  Do you disagree?  I am not interested in arguing over minutiae about ammunition when there's such a basic principle you seem to be ignoring.
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2014, 02:49:21 am »

I hate to sound rude, but maybe the 3rd time is the charm;

I do not advocate the use of lead. I am trying to tell you why lead is used. You are not listening, and continue to act under the mistaken presumption that I am advocating lead projectiles out of "its easier!"

This is not the case.  I am pointing out that outlawing lead projectiles will have other, very undesirable consequences.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2014, 02:57:29 am »

You never actually said that before, all of your posts appeared to be aimed at refuting the idea of placing regulations on lead ammunition (the way you presented the arguments completely one-sidedly in favour of keeping lead ammunition unregulated did this, and I don't think I was unreasonable in assuming that was what you were advocating).  But since we agree on the key point about lead regulation and this thread is not about technical ammo specs I don't think there's any point in continuing this line of discussion.
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2014, 02:59:41 am »

Agreed; the problem is that such regulation would have to be done against popular consent. Don't underestimate how powerful the gun lobby is.

(the irony is that the tangent started because I mentioned that bismuth was a suitable alternative to lead, and that as a consequence, shooting ranges did not "necessarily" have to be heavily lead contaminated areas. If anything, I lament that bismuth is so expensive. Not that lead is going away.)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:09:42 am by wierd »
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Reelya

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2014, 03:15:18 am »

I hate to sound rude, but maybe the 3rd time is the charm;

I do not advocate the use of lead. I am trying to tell you why lead is used. You are not listening, and continue to act under the mistaken presumption that I am advocating lead projectiles out of "its easier!"

This is not the case.  I am pointing out that outlawing lead projectiles will have other, very undesirable consequences.

But two dozen US states have already banned lead bullets and nothing like that has happened. I can't see all of California's hunter shifting to homemade guns.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:17:15 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2014, 03:17:15 am »

This is factually incorrect;

The law requires copper jacketing. The projectile is still basically lead. It DOES lead to increased damage to the barrel, but this is "tolerated" by gun owners, with much grumping.

Complete ban of lead projectiles in totality would result in exactly what I stated.

(The particulars revolve around the physics at work in how a projectile weapon operates. With less kinetic mass, the projectile must have a higher forward velocity to have the same penetrating power and range. This means that as the bullet gets lighter, the powder charge must increase for the same penetration/range. There are very real limits to what you can put inside a gun before it explodes. Copper jacketed bullets are still basically lead, and the powder charge metrics are basically identical to those of pure lead bullets. The downside is that the copper jackets are destructive to barrels, just not obscenely so, because the velocity is still low.)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:21:08 am by wierd »
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Reelya

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2014, 03:21:05 am »

Well you should get to see soon, because that's exactly what the law in California actually states. 100% lead free. We have citations for articles making that claim, can I see yours?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't copper jackets come in, in 1882? There's no new tech there.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:23:13 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2014, 03:23:04 am »

I just know the law here in flyoverland kansas, which states copper jackets.

What california just did is mandate the use of bismuth/tungsten alloy.  This will make it absurdly cost prohibitive (comparatively) to fire weapons there.  However, the increased base income (compared to here) may make up for this.

Here, the average median wage is around 30k.  People would die of starvation on that in Ca.  Here, people wont be able to afford pure bismuth projectiles.

Edit:
No, you are not wrong; copper jacketing is a very old practice. However, this does not absolve the copper jacket of being destructive (over time) to the barrel, especially in antique firearms that simply are not designed for copper jacketed mutitions.  Again, the steels used in gun barrels are mild steels, because they have to flex. Copper becomes "work hardened" under pressure, including that induced by a blast wave, such as that produced when discharging a firearm.  Hardened copper can often exceed the mohs hardness of mild steels, which is why it erodes gun barrels.

(Dont mess with me on this stuff, I worked as an engineer for 11 years) :P
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:27:52 am by wierd »
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Reelya

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2014, 03:27:03 am »

Is it normal to make shell casing from lead itself? I thought copper was normal for that for the last ~130 years?

And banning the lead from the inside of the slug therefore in no way damages the barrel more than the copper casing already does.

You're in "grasping at straws" mode and not even making sense.

wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2014, 03:28:21 am »

The shell casing does not go down the gun barrel, silly. :D
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Reelya

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2014, 03:29:19 am »

Lead jackets then. Copper jackets have been normal since a decade after the civil war. It's something that dates from when people who still remembered the Alamo were alive.

It's retarded to try and link that tech to damaging gun barrels and linking that to saying why lead slugs can't be replaced.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:36:41 am by Reelya »
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Empiricist

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2014, 03:30:29 am »

How about we all take a step back and calm down before this hostility worsens?
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wierd

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Re: Lead poisoning and violent crime rates
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2014, 03:39:48 am »

Clearly, we have a failure to communicate. (Its probably my fault, and I admit that; it's a problem)


Here is the fully nitty gritty.

1) A shell casing DOES NOT go down the barrel of the gun. It is discharged through the reciever out the side, or underneath the firearm. Thus, it does not contribute to erosive wear on the barrel.

2) Copper work hardens under physical stress. (Most metals do in fact) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening Copper is the poster child for this, because it hardens so much. Physical stresses include compressive stresses in this case.

3) Gun barrels are made of alloys that favor being "flexible and soft". This is especially true of long rifle barrels, where there is increased stress from a longer chambered explosive force. 

According to this source, the material used to make (at least this kind) pistol barrels is 415 stainless steel.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/bb349783501752c295ed46d58226d889-994.html

The material datasheet for 415 stainless is readily available online:
http://www.metalcor.de/en/datenblatt/8/

Note that it is formulated for "Toughness".

With metals, as this tool maker points out: http://americancuttingedge.com/hardness-vs-toughness/
As toughness increases, hardness goes down, and vise versa.

This means that gun barrels are not "Hard" metal, and as such, are usually much softer than other metals you will encounter.  This is why a soft projectile is really necessary. 

This is ESPECIALLY true in antique weapons, which have much more simplistic metallurgical compositions!


Now that we have covered the metal in the barrel, let's examine what happens with ballistic coefficients as the mass of the projectile drops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient

Basically, a high mass projectile does not slow down much as it encounters air drag. It thus, does not need as much initial energy to retain its velocity as it travels.

Reducing the mass of the projectile greatly affects the ability of the projectile to reach distant targets, and greatly affects the accuracy of the projectile.  In order to overcome those problems, the projectile must be delivered with significantly more energy.  that energy is delivered by the powder charge in the shell casing.

The gun barrel must be able to withstand the increased energy yeild behind the lighter projectile. If it cant, it explodes.

That out of the way, here's what the medical library of utah has to say on the subject:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

The relevant section is quoted with emphasis:

Quote
Bullets fired from a rifle will have more energy than similar bullets fired from a handgun. More powder can also be used in rifle cartridges because the bullet chambers can be designed to withstand greater pressures (50,000 to 70,000 for rifles psi vs. 30,000 to 40,000 psi for handgun chamber). Higher pressures require a bigger gun with more recoil that is slower to load and generates more heat that produces more wear on the metal. It is difficult in practice to measure the forces within a gun barrel, but the one easily measured parameter is the velocity with which the bullet exits the barrel (muzzle velocity) and this measurement will be used in examples below. (Bruner et al, 2011)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 03:59:37 am by wierd »
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