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[smeeprocket]

Tumblr, please go.

This is the sort of thing that starts the derails in the first place.  We have people coming in here and saying what amounts to "I don't want queers in this game".  They get called out for it, and then try to convince everyone that what they said is justified, and that just digs the hole deeper.  Not only does this derail threads, it also creates an atmosphere in which extremist bigots feel that they can harass others and spread hatred.

I don't want queers in this game, either, and that's just as justified as someone who does want queers in the game. Fact of the matter remains that the queers are irrelevant. We're delving into a dangerous topic, and I'm trying to steer us out of it before someone gets banned.

yeeeaaa, that was... I'm going to assume that sounded better in your head.

[Toady One]

(I removed the part that got worse than the above exchange, and banned a troll account...  I'd appreciate it people would meditate on the guidelines before posting.)

[k33n]

Why do we need to project contemporary human gender roles onto non-human entities? I like it better being weird. Maybe the humans in the game could get something human, but the rest should either get something totally alien.

Personally I like the stoic highly conservative dwarfs covered nearly head to toe, ignoring their gender except for breast milk and sex. Changing it so it resembles modern American sexuality would seem extremely camp and unimaginative.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I agree that there should be no gender roles for dwarves, since they have none. Humans should get something based on all the thousands of human societies that have existed, which is gender roles of some form with men doing most of the fighting and women doing most of the child care - the extent of this should vary, as it does from place to place. Elves and goblins can have whatever they want.

What was actually said in the deleted section? I did not see it before Toady removed it, though I am sure it was unworthy of this finely-crafted thread menacing with spikes of prejudice.

[smeeprocket]

It was a 4channer complaining about SJWs. (hope I don't get in trouble for explaining.) I mean he might not have been from 4chan, maybe Reddit or something, but he sounded 4channy.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It was a 4channer complaining about SJWs. (hope I don't get in trouble for explaining.) I mean he might not have been from 4chan, maybe Reddit or something, but he sounded 4channy.

You shouldn't.

He might not have been "from" anywhere. That is also stereotyping.

[Naryar]

This would not bring much into the game, not for the time needed into it.

We can have several social genders (female, male, asexual/other) different from biological genders (female, male), after all the tropes about masculine women and feminine men do exist in many, many stories.

Already there are differences in gender, the mothers take care of the babies when they are young. This should cause a gender culture to raise.

I certainly don't want genders getting into the way of cloth/job choice.

Yes, we can have more defined genders and gender identification, it would probably add some depth. But something more complex like transgender genders and people changing genders ? More than three social genders ? Most of the playerbase will probably not care about it, and only a minority will do care.

tl;dr effort by Toady for no gain at all, for me and for other players.

This idea is best dealt by mods, so people that want complex genders can have them.

[Graknorke]

I seriously doubt that having 48 genders would be significantly more work than having 3. Modifiable frameworks tend to have that quality.

[Neonivek]

I agree that there should be no gender roles for dwarves, since they have none. Humans should get something based on all the thousands of human societies that have existed, which is gender roles of some form with men doing most of the fighting and women doing most of the child care - the extent of this should vary, as it does from place to place. Elves and goblins can have whatever they want.

What was actually said in the deleted section? I did not see it before Toady removed it, though I am sure it was unworthy of this finely-crafted thread menacing with spikes of prejudice.

Ignoring your earlier posts and choosing to take you seriously.

Here is the thing... It really differed not only from society to society but even within those societies themselves. What you described wasn't the norm, it is "Pop History" correct... but not factual.

I am not against Gender Roles in dwarf fortress especially since the game can just create entirely unique ones that do not have to match real life ones. Yet it should be something handled by the generator and not in some attempt to replicate popular forms of history.

[Ogdibus]

Making everybody asexual would result in no babies, unless all the males constantly ejaculated into the air like they did before the most recent update. Sexuality is an important feature for the gameplay as well as just being a background feature.

I was referring to asexual biology, not behavior.   Reproduction would still exist, but it wouldn't be dependent on the conception of gametes.

I seriously doubt that having 48 genders would be significantly more work than having 3. Modifiable frameworks tend to have that quality.

You're probably right.  Given the variety of materials, clothing, and Arms in the game, I wouldn't  be surprised if Toady already plans to do something at least similar to what this thread proposes.   Functionally, it's just a type social caste.  Whether gender is involved or not, the system could have a lot of potential.  There is also the issue of not being able to see what the castes are while you are playing.  You would almost need some sort of culture profile fore each civilization, or you would have no idea what the roles and their characteristics are.  I wouldn't mind having something like that as things are right now.  It's hard to get a feel for the civilizations, even as you interact with them.  You don't know what they wear, what they believe, or who their leaders, allies, and enemies are without doing a lot of legwork to examine and speak to dozens of citizens.

While it might not be "too much" work to code, it could bloat the ram and disk space usage.   Quite a few people already mod things out of the game in order to improve performance.  I would personally prefer to have fewer weapon and clothing types, but I like the material variety.

[Putnam]

I seriously doubt that having 48 genders would be significantly more work than having 3. Modifiable frameworks tend to have that quality.

Hmm. It's more an issue of memory usage than of work. It's the same with orientation as of the latest version IIRC; there's only male_lover, male_marry, female_lover, female_marry because it's simply easier to calculate and store when the time comes. Not only that, but the orientation issue will explode pretty badly if this were to be included; you couldn't just have the four flags that contains 7 possibilities, you would have a vector of booleans that describe which genders and sexes the unit is attracted to. This isn't actually a problem human-wise, but computer-wise it could be pretty bad.

Hmm. After writing that, I think that as a practical concern, I may be against this suggestion. Intellectually, I'm all for it, procedural gender could be interesting as fuck, and the way I see it anything that's interesting belongs in the game, but it's sort of a difficult computational issue.

[Meph]

I would honestly like to see two additions that are related to gender and/or sex:

1. Caste-related graphics, so you can display male/female dwarves differently.
2. Male/Female specific clothing. Shirts? Male & Female. Dress? Female. Codpiece? Male. This could be as easy as adding the specific tag to the item. Just add male, female or both tags.

I dont care for gender roles, as they add no gameplay value. As many know, I heavily focus on the game mechanics, less on the storytelling.

[Dirst]

We could combine this thread with the gelding one... that would give you a role with a procedure for dealing with gender!

[Ogdibus]

It was a 4channer complaining about SJWs. (hope I don't get in trouble for explaining.) I mean he might not have been from 4chan, maybe Reddit or something, but he sounded 4channy.

You shouldn't.

He might not have been "from" anywhere. That is also stereotyping.

There is a group of 4chan members in /pol/ that organized for the expressed purpose of harassing trans people with the intention of provoking us to commit suicide.  The statement might be referring to that group.

We could combine this thread with the gelding one... that would give you a role with a procedure for dealing with gender!

Are you thinking of something like the eunuch government officials in ancient China, or harem guards, or priests of Cybele?

[Reelya]

I would honestly like to see two additions that are related to gender and/or sex:

1. Caste-related graphics, so you can display male/female dwarves differently.
2. Male/Female specific clothing. Shirts? Male & Female. Dress? Female. Codpiece? Male. This could be as easy as adding the specific tag to the item. Just add male, female or both tags.

I dont care for gender roles, as they add no gameplay value. As many know, I heavily focus on the game mechanics, less on the storytelling.

Clothing by sex tag would be good, but caste-level clothing would be better, since the change would have more potential for modding. To make that work with custom castes etc, you need separate sets of tags on the clothing items and the castes, which match custom tokens (like the reaction products do). Ideally, there would be new tags on the ENTITY level, that go along with the allowed clothing tags, to specify category(s) for each piece of clothes, then, at the caste level, you have tags to allow or disallow each category of clothing.