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[smeeprocket]

presumably by making *troll intestine condom*s and using them.

Ugh. That just gives me images of a dwarf running out onto the battle field to collect a stray Xtroll intestine condomX. "Ho-boy, gunna get lucky tonight!"

oh gawd! You went too far. >.<

[Reelya]

Treating it as a mental illness only has bad consequences if the society has a very negative view of mental illness. As for problems only being caused by non acceptance, that is also an assumption - the genital dysphoria itself can be very distressing for some, seeing the wrong body all the time, regardless of anyone else's opinions.

The discussing this was replying to was about one of us labeling transgender as a mental illness, in this actual discussion. What hypothetical dwarven society would think of it is not the same issue that was being dicussed. In our society, labelling some behavior you disagree with as a mental illness does in fact carry very negative connotation that's it's not "proper thinking", and that it's an illness which should be "cured" so they "think right". Until recent decades homosexuality was labeled the same.

"Don't label transgender people as mentally ill in this thread" => "Yes, but what would dwarves think of it?" isn't a valid rebuttal. I do think smeeprokect overreated to the term "sex-dysphoria" a little, but still, bringing in non-existant societies hypothetical views on mental illness isn't a coherent addition to the debate. But even then, I doubt it would be different in any society which even had a concept of metal illness. "metal illness" implies wrong thinking which should be fixed, no matter how nice we are about it.

[Graknorke]

This is the upper boards. The context should be about DF or avoiding tangents from being such as much as possible.

[Reelya]

I think though when the context is something that is controversial in the real world then it's inevitable that there will be some meta-discussion. Not having any discussion on people in the threads different views on gender roles except in the exact specific context of the game isn't practical.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Actually, I only think categorising something as a mental illness is harmful if society views mental illness as something to be feared and punished, as was true around much of the world until recently and still is to some extent today. A sizable fraction of people will have some kind of mental health problem in their lives and it is important that this is not treated as any more shameful as a physical disability. There are issues with being associated with very rare "psycho killers" that only make up a miniscule fraction of the mentally ill.

Genital dysmorphia is similar to manic depression in some ways - distressing to start with, made far worse by social rejection, can lead to suicide, and people would be much better without it.

[phantom713]

I think that the dwarfs should just stay gender-less. They wouldn't need to identify as a different gender because there are none. The classifications "male" and "female" simply refer to their genitalia while sexual orientation refers to what kind of genitalia they are attracted to. I just don't see how you could be transgender when there are  no genders to start with.

[Dirst]

The point of discussing it in a suggestion forum is to get a handle on how socially constructed roles should function, even if it's something that never comes up for vanilla Dwarves.  Slavery is in the game, but vanilla Dwarves don't have slaves and therefore there are no fort-mode tools for managing slaves.  But when DF does start to officially support non-Dwarf forts such a thing becomes salient.  You could think of socially constructed roles in a similar way: planning ahead.

[Graknorke]

The thing is that sexual dimorphism pretty much doesn't exist in the game, so those would be unlikely to be the basis of roles.
I could see either humans or goblins being overbearingly restrictive on a person's attributes to work a job maybe, like only THE STRONKEST are allowed to be miners or woodcutters and you have to be absurdly dexterous to be a craftsman/goblin and so on. Humans more than goblins now that I think about it since they would serve as a good contrast to the dwarves. The dwarves have a skill and community based system where each dwarf does what they must; while the humans' ambitious nature would lead to a system where each person is socially obliged to make the best out of the natural talents they have, even if it's not helpful to the town as a whole.

[Neonivek]

I'd stay far away from sexual dimorphism with the main races though. It is just too controversial.

Dwarf Fortress isn't Charlie and the Chocolate factory where they justify black slavery and everyone is fine with it.

[Graknorke]

Was that in response to me? I didn't mean to write about slavery at all, if so.

[Neonivek]

Was that in response to me? I didn't mean to write about slavery at all, if so.

Not so much in that sexual dimorphism would probably be seen as a way to attempt to justify sexism in real life if done in the main races.

[Graknorke]

Was that in response to me? I didn't mean to write about slavery at all, if so.

Not so much in that sexual dimorphism would probably be seen as a way to attempt to justify sexism in real life if done in the main races.

I understand that. I wasn't suggesting that there should be sexual dimorphism, just commenting that it doesn't exist.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Was that in response to me? I didn't mean to write about slavery at all, if so.

Not so much in that sexual dimorphism would probably be seen as a way to attempt to justify sexism in real life if done in the main races.

I agree that there should be no dimorphism for dwarves, elves or goblins. Humans, however, are a different story, since we know they have sexual dimorphism, unless DF humans are actually "human like creatures". It is quite clear that DF's humans are not role models, nor are they the main species in the game. The world of DF is violent and primitive, just the sort of situation where repressive human societies flourish. Showing these humans as having gender roles does not endorse that any more than goblin child abduction endorses child abduction.

[smeeprocket]

Actually, I only think categorising something as a mental illness is harmful if society views mental illness as something to be feared and punished, as was true around much of the world until recently and still is to some extent today. A sizable fraction of people will have some kind of mental health problem in their lives and it is important that this is not treated as any more shameful as a physical disability. There are issues with being associated with very rare "psycho killers" that only make up a miniscule fraction of the mentally ill.

Genital dysmorphia is similar to manic depression in some ways - distressing to start with, made far worse by social rejection, can lead to suicide, and people would be much better without it.

1

you need to stop, you are wrong. The APA, which knows much more about psychological illness than you, does not label transgender as a disorder or mental illness. Your view is based on nothing but your own assumptions. And now you are making even more wild claims.

Like I said, this is effectively gaslighting a chunk of the populace, and it will have negative results. Up to and including the suicide of people gaslighted. It is irrelevant what connotations mental illness has, and it is also irrelevant because it is not a mental illness. I will take a the Amercan Psychiatry Association's word on this over your ignorance.

[Putnam]

Actually, I only think categorising something as a mental illness is harmful if society views mental illness as something to be feared and punished, as was true around much of the world until recently and still is to some extent today. A sizable fraction of people will have some kind of mental health problem in their lives and it is important that this is not treated as any more shameful as a physical disability. There are issues with being associated with very rare "psycho killers" that only make up a miniscule fraction of the mentally ill.

Genital dysmorphia is similar to manic depression in some ways - distressing to start with, made far worse by social rejection, can lead to suicide, and people would be much better without it.

1

you need to stop, you are wrong. The APA, which knows much more about psychological illness than you, does not label transgender as a disorder or mental illness. Your view is based on nothing but your own assumptions. And now you are making even more wild claims.

Like I said, this is effectively gaslighting a chunk of the populace, and it will have negative results. Up to and including the suicide of people gaslighted. It is irrelevant what connotations mental illness has, and it is also irrelevant because it is not a mental illness. I will take a the Amercan Psychiatry Association's word on this over your ignorance.

Okay, first, you are correct.

Second, you are going about saying this very wrongly.