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[Graknorke]

Random wouldn't be exactly in the spirit of the game.

Except for clowns, FBs, worldgen, names, artifacts...

Names and artefacts aren't completely random, place names are related to the place to a degree, and artefacts are influenced by the preferences of the dwarf making it.
When it's possible to have a logical influence from other aspects of that game why would it be completely random?

[Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum]

So, question...
(Please don't be offended, this is only applying for dwarves.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Does anyone think dwarves might change sex to be able to have children? Considering gender doesn't matter, I think if you have two married dwarves who both want to raise a family but are the same sex, one might get a sex change to be able to. (Since not all fortresses have orphans, or even many children.)

[Orange Wizard]

Procedural is the term you're looking for. Random, but generally cohesive.

...

So, question...
(Please don't be offended, this is only applying for dwarves.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Does anyone think dwarves might change sex to be able to have children? Considering gender doesn't matter, I think if you have two married dwarves who both want to raise a family but are the same sex, one might get a sex change to be able to. (Since not all fortresses have orphans, or even many children.)

Unless we get magic involved, I doubt it. AFAIK we can't even do this with modern technology.

[smeeprocket]

yea sex changes still wouldn't mean the reproductive organs would be in place or work at all. That's something even modern technology is not capable of.

But dwarven medicine is not advanced enough to do anything like a sex change. And you'd need hormone therapy, which is way way beyond them.

While I would like to see transgender and intersex implemented, it would be through the dwarf identifying as the other gender and being recognized as such, not having surgery.

[GoblinCookie]

You just need to stop. I am not holding a knife to a transgendered person's throat and saying I will kill them (or make them do it,) if you don't respect them. That would not be blackmail, it would be a a threat of violence.

Stop accusing people who disagree with you of victimizing you in some way. That just distracts from the actual issue, because then everyone has to pander to your hurt feelings or your accusations. It is infantile.

You also continue to derail the thread with this garbage. Just. Stop.

My feelings are not hurt.  I never derailed any threads, you decided to make the thread about transexuality and then you started to accuse people who disagreed with you of being responsible for transexual people killing themselves. 

I decided to challenge what you were doing and the word for what you were doing is blackmail.  If you will agree not to try and use other people's suicides to intimidate people into agreeing with you then I am quite happy to call it quits. 

yea sex changes still wouldn't mean the reproductive organs would be in place or work at all. That's something even modern technology is not capable of.

But dwarven medicine is not advanced enough to do anything like a sex change. And you'd need hormone therapy, which is way way beyond them.

While I would like to see transgender and intersex implemented, it would be through the dwarf identifying as the other gender and being recognized as such, not having surgery.

Given we have a completely egalitarian and almost entirely genderless society, why would anybody in that society become transexual?  Why would the concept of not being the gender that you are physically born as ever arise?  The whole setup of transexuality requires a binary division between physical/biological sex and non-physical/social gender exist. 

Since there is no social gender in dwarf fortress only physical sex, then transexuality existing does not make any sense.  Unless we add proceedurely generated gender roles which neither of us are for.  If we did that then transexuality would make sense.

[Dirst]

That could be an interesting psychological experiment.

Most of the members of the species would have to fit within the constraints of what is "normal" for there to really be an abnormal to work off of and be made a pariah for.

For extra fun, bullying could be thrown in somewhat randomly (a particular child is marked and has to experience it, or an adult, possibly,) causing distress in the victim and maybe even modifying the personality to be less able to manage stress as a whole.

I can't think of an upside to this, though, other than tormenting the sentients of your society for arbitrary reasons.

The game will trust the raws about what is acceptable, and anyone with low tolerance or high regard for "traditional values" isn't going to last very long.  If the civ actually survives, it will be full of people who don't care about the (unworkable) traditions in their culture.

Even in the real world, the physical norm of a Photoshopped supermodel is unacheivable yet a lot teenage girls try like hell anyway.

The only upside I see to this whole system is introducing some correlation into sentient beings traits.  So we're less likely to get completely screwy combinations of skills and preferences.  When we get some random jiggling in entity variables, we'll even get some interesting procedurally generated cultures.

"You can't be a woodcutter, boy. That's work for someone with a convex nose!"

[Neonivek]

I am actually quite confused... the way the conversation is going AND the original topic seem to be separate. So I don't know where we are.

Yeah I am deleting what I said, too much controversy.

[nothingSpecial]

I tried to read this thread but it was so... messy that I decided to log on after a long read-only and get the things straight (no pun intended).

Can the suggestion in original post be represented by this list?
1. Add the possibility for creature to have the binary gender not the same as it's sex;
That would make four genders from original post example possible, except without names for non-sex-gender-matching two.
2. Add the possibility for creature to have orientation according to sex or according to gender;
That would make possibility for Thailand-style five-gender system (correct me if I am mistaken Thailand for other country).
3. Add the possibility for entity to have gender preferition for position (think Elven queen has GENDERED token instead of FEMALE).
That would make some degree of diversed cultures. Those who don't like it because it reminds them of real oppression could just remove the tags, the same as now for Elves.
4. Add the parameter for entity clothing token to be gendered and in world gen it will be either masculind or feminine.
That would make some very flavoury degree of diversity amongst cultures, but need to have some checks. If both pants and skirts would be feminine you'll get barelegged adventurer a lot.
5. Add the possibility for entity to make one gender (like now), two (feminine women and masculine men), three (plus one of mixed cimbinations) or four (both of them) with procedural names.
That would complete the example of fourth-gendered society.
6. Add the orientation into the mix.
That will make five and more gendered socities possible, but also will complicate current orientation issue a lot.
7. Add for gods ability to prohibit some jobs for some genders (or all of them, by the way).
That explains itself

And the most important.
8. Add for creatures the impact of their traditionalism and worship levels for emotions if they forced to wear non-traditional clothes, or clothes not  appropriate for their gender, or make jobs that are frowned by their deity.

Everything except the sixth should both be not very hard and do the work for most pre-Twentieth century sicieties.
Sixth would be good but IIRC Toady already find current orientation system too complex. Some modifications can also add the genderfluid, genderqueer and intersex people, but I'm not sure how.

Was my attempt to answer to original post and not to very strangely derailed discussion successful?

[Dirst]

Toady was asked point-blank about orientation and castes.  At present, orientation is geared toward the two sexes because this can be represented by four bits (one each for looking for: male lover, male marriage, female lover, female marriage).  Allowing caste-to-caste matching could potentially get cumbersome due to its variable length, but I think it'd be worth it when and if the game develops some sense of socially-constructed roles (gendered or otherwise).  It's not like defining a creature is straightforward now!

Such a system might also open up alternate arrangements for marriage and reproduction, such as a bonobo-like free-for-all, or monogamy, or harems, of one of each of these three castes, or whatever.

[smeeprocket]

christ, bonobo-like, there would be babies everywhere. >.<

[MDFification]

Adding on a system to designate roles for individuals could also be used to create India-like caste systems or Medieval feudalism, not just genders.

[Dyret]

Speaking of alternate arrangements I recently bumped into a lord with two consorts... not sure if bug or feature.

[MDFification]

Speaking of alternate arrangements I recently bumped into a lord with two consorts... not sure if bug or feature.

Bug.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I personally am very much against sex changes in DF. Though there are now legendary gelders, I doubt that dwarves have anywhere near the level of scientific knowledge to do such things with any level of success.

Bonobo-like sexuality would not necessarily lead to babies everywhere, since much of the activity is same-sex and dwarves respect the child cap set on the fort by its overseer, presumably by making *troll intestine condom*s and using them.

[ptb_ptb]

presumably by making *troll intestine condom*s and using them.

Ugh. That just gives me images of a dwarf running out onto the battle field to collect a stray Xtroll intestine condomX. "Ho-boy, gunna get lucky tonight!"