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[Reelya]

What I think the David Reimer case shows is that the mind/body are a holistic unit, and expecting to be able to make superficial changes and just mentally reshape people into another person basically is misguided, it was cases like this which discredited the 1970's dogma of gender identity being 100% a social construct.

It might be a useful distinction to separate the concepts of gender identity and gender roles. Identity is who you are on the inside, roles are what other people expect of you. "Roles" are never innate because they arise from the external dynamic.

[MDFification]

What I think the David Reimer case shows is that the mind/body are a holistic unit, and expecting to be able to make superficial changes and just mentally reshape people into another person basically is misguided, it was cases like this which discredited the 1970's dogma of gender identity being 100% a social construct.

It might be a useful distinction to separate the concepts of gender identity and gender roles. Identity is who you are on the inside, roles are what other people expect of you. "Roles" are never innate because they arise from the external dynamic.

The title seems to imply making procedural gender roles, which is really a subset of procedural culture in general. Adding in sex-dysphoric individuals for sentient species is what we've mostly seemed to discuss here though.

[smeeprocket]

I'm not sure sex-dysphoric is really a proper term, or what transgendered individuals would like to be referred to. It implies something is wrong with the mind, which, as I said, not just I, but the trans community would disagree with. It would be the same thing as saying gay people are mentally ill, even though, in both cases, treating it as a mental illness has very very bad effects. Which is why perhaps I seem so hostile when that was suggested.

Yes there definitely is a difference between gender roles and gender identity. And I think, even without gender roles, such as in dwarf society, there would be gender identity. That was my point. Where one line ends and the other begins... it's hard to say, tbh.

And yes, I apologize for hijacking the thread.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Treating it as a mental illness only has bad consequences if the society has a very negative view of mental illness. As for problems only being caused by non acceptance, that is also an assumption - the genital dysphoria itself can be very distressing for some, seeing the wrong body all the time, regardless of anyone else's opinions.

[smeeprocket]

Treating it as a mental illness only has bad consequences if the society has a very negative view of mental illness. As for problems only being caused by non acceptance, that is also an assumption - the genital dysphoria itself can be very distressing for some, seeing the wrong body all the time, regardless of anyone else's opinions.

Have you ever heard of the movie Gaslight? Or heard the term?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

That is what you are doing.

It has the same effect as telling someone who is gay that they are mentally ill. It is not an assumption, it can be seen very clearly in practice and has very predictable results.

If you are told that you are fundamentally not right, or you are confused, or you are ill because of something that is not only unchangeable, but not wrong at all, you will eventually come to believe that, even if only subconsciously. You will fall into depression, become suicidal, so forth and so on. If I tell you that you are not a male, you are just ill, (See David Reiner for proof,) it will result in the same thing as telling that over and over to a transwoman. I have given you the perfect example, where a psychiatrist attempted the same thing on a cis-gendered person, with the exact same results.

It is not an illness. The only thing that allows it to be described as that is societal expectations and gender roles.

The conclusions you are jumping to are made with no experience or understanding of the issue. It has nothing to do with my opinion, you are just completely, and absolutely, wrong. And that way of thinking is psychologically damaging to other people.

If you try to treat it as a mental illness, it will cause people to kill themselves.

Don't be part of that.

[GoblinCookie]

I'm not sure sex-dysphoric is really a proper term, or what transgendered individuals would like to be referred to. It implies something is wrong with the mind, which, as I said, not just I, but the trans community would disagree with. It would be the same thing as saying gay people are mentally ill, even though, in both cases, treating it as a mental illness has very very bad effects. Which is why perhaps I seem so hostile when that was suggested.

Yes there definitely is a difference between gender roles and gender identity. And I think, even without gender roles, such as in dwarf society, there would be gender identity. That was my point. Where one line ends and the other begins... it's hard to say, tbh.

And yes, I apologize for hijacking the thread.

I disagree.  At the moment dwarf fortress society (of any race) has effectively no gender roles (elves do a little bit), even the names are not gendered and it is actually fairly hard to tell at a glance what gender a character is unless you go into a detailed look at them in a more general sense. 

For a dwarf at the moment to be transexual is therefore rather like a dwarf with a long nose claiming that really he actually has a short nose, because gender does not have any meaning or significance beyond the physical biology.  In the event that a dwarf was ambiguious biologically the matter would be subject to 'interpretation' but that would not have any real bearing on the life of the dwarf any more than not being able to decide whether a dwarf's nose is really long or short (it is a matter of subjective measurement).

To have transexuals you must have a sense of dualism by which there is the physical appearance of the sexes and then the socially defined nature/roles of the genders.  It must be the case that male and masculine, female and feminine are seen as distinct concepts from eachother before a person who is born biologically of one sex can rationally view themselves as the opposite gender.

This means that until restrictive sex roles are added into the game having transexual dwarves is nonsense.  But why do we need those roles, given they add nothing to the game and only serve to make the game-world more like your standard fantasy setting.  The near-abscence of gender is something unique to the game that makes the game and it's societies more interesting to think about.

[GoblinCookie]

If you try to treat it as a mental illness, it will cause people to kill themselves.

Don't be part of that.

It is funny how you use a link about bullying in attempt to bully those you disagree with. 

Agree with me or else people will die.  Lovely little blackmail you have going there.

[XXXXYYYY]

[Dirst]

Since personality traits are defined at the caste level, you could contrive a species that has different castes that prefer different types of roles.  A simple form would be to have a CISMALE (biologically MALE with masculine personality), CISFEMALE (biologically FEMALE with feminine personality), TRANSMALE (biologically FEMALE with masculine personality) and TRANSFEMALE (biologically MALE with feminine personality), and possibly FLUIDMALE and FLUIDFEMALE who have middling personalities.

The problem is that the vanilla game has no personality differences between genders, so adding all of this to vanilla Dwarves won't change anything.

[GoblinCookie]

Since personality traits are defined at the caste level, you could contrive a species that has different castes that prefer different types of roles.  A simple form would be to have a CISMALE (biologically MALE with masculine personality), CISFEMALE (biologically FEMALE with feminine personality), TRANSMALE (biologically FEMALE with masculine personality) and TRANSFEMALE (biologically MALE with feminine personality), and possibly FLUIDMALE and FLUIDFEMALE who have middling personalities.

The problem is that the vanilla game has no personality differences between genders, so adding all of this to vanilla Dwarves won't change anything.

What? You can add personality differences at caste level.  You could mod the vanilla dwarves to have different personality, indeed even completely different bodies, symbols, colours and pretty much everything else.

[smeeprocket]

If you try to treat it as a mental illness, it will cause people to kill themselves.

Don't be part of that.

It is funny how you use a link about bullying in attempt to bully those you disagree with. 

Agree with me or else people will die.  Lovely little blackmail you have going there.

Excuse me? Who am I bullying? Do you feel like I'm hurting you because I'm telling you not to torment people until they become suicidal?

I'm sorry to put you out. I mean, your feelings on this are so important. Not having anything relevant to it going on in your life. It's really important you get to express the idea that someone else is fundamentally flawed by just existing as they are.

I am not bullying you, I am giving you the reality of the situation. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

But oh look, here is a study showing the causes of transgender suicide cases.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28/local/la-me-ln-suicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

That's from people who have done research and put effort into formulating an opinion on the matter.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/

Personally, I don't feel like telling a bully that they are wrong and their actions will have expected results in a form of bullying in and of itself. I am merely clarifying that that viewpoint is ignorant, flawed, and absolutely screwed up.

[GoblinCookie]

Excuse me? Who am I bullying? Do you feel like I'm hurting you because I'm telling you not to torment people until they become suicidal?

I'm sorry to put you out. I mean, your feelings on this are so important. Not having anything relevant to it going on in your life. It's really important you get to express the idea that someone else is fundamentally flawed by just existing as they are.

I am not bullying you, I am giving you the reality of the situation. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

But oh look, here is a study showing the causes of transgender suicide cases.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28/local/la-me-ln-suicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

That's from people who have done research and put effort into formulating an opinion on the matter.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/

Personally, I don't feel like telling a bully that they are wrong and their actions will have expected results in a form of bullying in and of itself. I am merely clarifying that that viewpoint is ignorant, flawed, and absolutely screwed up.

It was not me that you were trying to bully. 

You define failing to agree with you as oppression and discrimination.  You use the lives of those you died as a means to intimidate others, agree with us or else we will die.  That is blackmail.

The only facts your articles have actually demonstrated is that transexuals are more likely to commit suicide than non-transexuals.  They have actually demonstrated the actual reason why this is so, they claim the reason is 'oppression and discrimination' and that may well be so.

It is the way you consider disagreement with a certain viewpoint as oppression that makes you a blackmailer trying to intellectually profit from other people's deaths.

[MDFification]

Friendly reminder that we are not here to discuss the nature of trans individuals and issues surrounding them. If you want to have a thread about that, take it to General. This is the suggestions forum; if you're posting things that are not relevant to potential gameplay mechanics, you probably should be posting elsewhere.

Hopefully we can re-rail this thread here. The thread is talking about adding in not only gender roles (needs definition; what does a gender role entail in DF terms? Just what jobs are available? Property ownership? Availability of positions? Effects on reproduction? Weighting towards specific personality traits to display pressure to conform to a certain social role? Specific dress codes?) but a system that generates these procedurally.
Cultures clearly have different gender roles; some have more than 2, and most entail different roles for genders, i.e. historically in Europe crying was considered a manly behavior as it showed intensity of emotion. So there isn't really much to debate as to whether or not the game should model differences between genders in cultures if it models genders at all.

What needs to be established in this thread atm is;
-What variables are to be 'gendered'?
-Do you think gender modelling makes the game more immersive, or do you think it'd wreck your gameplay?
-How should this interact with a possible future procedural culture system?

Now please cease the super important INTERNET FIGHT before you get the thread locked.

[smeeprocket]

Excuse me? Who am I bullying? Do you feel like I'm hurting you because I'm telling you not to torment people until they become suicidal?

I'm sorry to put you out. I mean, your feelings on this are so important. Not having anything relevant to it going on in your life. It's really important you get to express the idea that someone else is fundamentally flawed by just existing as they are.

I am not bullying you, I am giving you the reality of the situation. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

But oh look, here is a study showing the causes of transgender suicide cases.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/28/local/la-me-ln-suicide-attempts-alarming-transgender-20140127

That's from people who have done research and put effort into formulating an opinion on the matter.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/

Personally, I don't feel like telling a bully that they are wrong and their actions will have expected results in a form of bullying in and of itself. I am merely clarifying that that viewpoint is ignorant, flawed, and absolutely screwed up.

It was not me that you were trying to bully. 

You define failing to agree with you as oppression and discrimination.  You use the lives of those you died as a means to intimidate others, agree with us or else we will die.  That is blackmail.

The only facts your articles have actually demonstrated is that transexuals are more likely to commit suicide than non-transexuals.  They have actually demonstrated the actual reason why this is so, they claim the reason is 'oppression and discrimination' and that may well be so.

It is the way you consider disagreement with a certain viewpoint as oppression that makes you a blackmailer trying to intellectually profit from other people's deaths.

I find it interesting when bigots try to act like they are the victim.

I don't think you understand the term blackmail, because even if you think I'm bullying you, that wouldn't be blackmail. I can't even figure out, even twisting it up, how that word would be applicable.

It seems to be a trend for the oppressor to cry foul when confronted by their actions, and pretend that they are the injured party. No, you are not being blackmailed, and I don't really care if I hurt your feelings or you feel I am bullying you.

Your opinions are formed from you own prejudices and have no bearing on reality. You have no experience with this, other than a visceral feeling that transgendered people are "not right." Presumably because they are different and you are engineered to believe that different things are bad.

I have presented very clear evidence that insisting over and over that a person is a different gender than their own will make them suicidal. I showed you an example of this happening with a cis-gendered individual, who exhibited the same problems transgendered individuals face.

I have made the point that if you do this to gay people, the same things happen. It is painfully obvious, to anyone but the most dense and intentionally obtuse person, that telling someone they are mentally ill because of their gender or sexuality is wrong and bad.

So please, get off the cross. I don't have to defend myself to you when you bring nothing to the table but a lot of crying over how "mean" I'm being and zero evidence of the ridiculous claims you, or Urist, whom I assume you agree with, bring.

[smeeprocket]

I've expressed this earlier but my feeling is it is a bad suggestion overall. Dealing with gender roles in real life is bad enough, and it would be rather restrictive to have to divy out professions based on gender, etc.

I prefer it as it is, with no gender roles.