Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[smeeprocket]

You are getting a history lesson because you engaged in a historical discussion and made some points yourself.

I do not think that gender identity would not be such a major issue for dwarves since they are gender equal and homosexuality is openly accepted. Without gender roles as such, it seems less likely that transgender dwarves would appear, and even if they did, there is not much than can be done about it with dwarven medicine.

right but be aware that transgender and intersex individuals have existed since forever, so medical treatment and hormones have only recently been an option, and even with it available not everyone takes that path.

While I realize dwarves have very little in the way of gender roles, I still think it would be a valuable, and wonderfully inclusive addition.

Also, transgender people can be gay, straight, bi, pansexual, or any other sexuality out there. So the acceptance of homosexuality isn't entirely related.

[Graknorke]

Bringing this up because you seem to have missed it.

I really don't see why it shouldn't exist, even in a society that has a generally neutral stance toward gender, someone might still identify as female or non binary etc.

Well we can't really know that, given the lack of egalitarian societies to study.

Really, IMO it would seem rather forced given the state of societies and the opinions of individuals as they exist in the game right now. Building the roof before the walls, so to speak.

[Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum]

Right now dwarves are entirely gender neutral. It seems a but early to be putting in all these things which dwarves wouldn't have...

And I think that dwarves are going to stay completely gender neutral, and I would prefer that to be the case. I don't think of dwarves as having gender really, they are just dwarves.

Spoiler:  Fortress mode rant (click to show/hide)

And it would be annoying to have to deal with male and female dwarves being different in fortress mode without a way to easily see their sex, and adding lots of gender roles would make that even more of a problem.
Imaging each gender of dwarf needing completely different sets of clothing. That would mean you need to balance gender when making clothes, and be restricted in what you could make for your dwarves. It is so much easier to just say "make dresses" on repeat and have all the dwarves wear dresses.

It would be even worse if jobs were ordered by gender, because that is just very restricting and annoying. I want to be able to put all my migrants into the military if I want, not having to sort them all into jobs by gender.
Or someone who likes shields and helmets being unable to become a blacksmith because they identify as male instead of female? That would be annoying to me.

Even on embark currently (unable to choose our dwarves) what is none of them were the correct gender to be a good armoursmith/brewer? Would I have to redo my standard embark's job assignments every time because I don't have a correctly gendered dwarf?

[smeeprocket]

Bringing this up because you seem to have missed it.

I really don't see why it shouldn't exist, even in a society that has a generally neutral stance toward gender, someone might still identify as female or non binary etc.

Well we can't really know that, given the lack of egalitarian societies to study.

Really, IMO it would seem rather forced given the state of societies and the opinions of individuals as they exist in the game right now. Building the roof before the walls, so to speak.

I actually found something interesting that leads me to believe this would happen even in societies without gender roles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

he was raised from birth as a female, despite being biologically male. If gender roles, the societal construct, are the culprit, then there's no genetics involved and he should have accepted the change. But gender is biological, and that includes for transgender people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm

Anyway, as was said, we don't have an egalitarian society with no gender roles to look at.

The thread is kind of split between two different suggestions because I mentioned all this.

And now someone has managed to do the worst possible thing with my mod, which just makes me ill.

[Urist Tilaturist]

David Reimer is different becuase he was born fully male, then lost his penis in a botched operation and was raised as female before becoming male again. That is not the same as someone with male genitals who is raised male and wants to be female. Dwarves may have these kinds of psychological problems, but they would not be stigmatised to the point where they become severely damaging (dwarves of both sexes wear dresses, for example).

[smeeprocket]

David Reimer is different becuase he was born fully male, then lost his penis in a botched operation and was raised as female before becoming male again. That is not the same as someone with male genitals who is raised male and wants to be female. Dwarves may have these kinds of psychological problems, but they would not be stigmatised to the point where they become severely damaging (dwarves of both sexes wear dresses, for example).

Actually it is exactly the same.

If you are a transgender male, you are fully male, you just have female reproductive organs. See my link about the genetic and brain differences and similarities.

This is not a psychological issue. It is wholly biological. Therefore, he is a perfect example.

The only platform from which one can come to the conclusion that trasngendered individuals would only occur in societies with gender roles is the one where transgendered individuals are suffering from some sort of mental illness or psychological trauma. Which I absolutely disagree with.

[MDFification]

People don't choose which gender they identify with - although genders differ through various cultures, the same binary/nonconforming paradigm exists. There certainly is a biological process which leads people to identify with male or female gender roles (or neither) innately.

On an unrelated note, its odd that we're talking about genital dysphoria when genitals are only modeled in the most abstract manner.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Biology and psychology are very closely linked to the point where they are often indistinguishable. I can understand that dwarves may have genital dysphoria of some sort, but what is there that they can really do about it? Acting as the opposite gender would be acting the same for them.

Would you not consider a condition that leads to desire to mutilate one's genitals, or even commit suicide, to be some form of disability? Manic depression is certainly considered such, as do various problems involving delusions. Of course, hormone treatment or even operations may be the best treatment for this, but it is still something that must be treated.

[Graknorke]

There certainly is a biological process which leads people to identify with male or female gender roles (or neither) innately.

[Putnam]

There certainly is a biological process which leads people to identify with male or female gender roles (or neither) innately.

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195418
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

http://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2o02ul/cmv_i_think_transgenderism_is_a_mental_health/cmih4oh?context=3

[Graknorke]

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195418
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

http://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2o02ul/cmv_i_think_transgenderism_is_a_mental_health/cmih4oh?context=3

Alright, I'll take it.

[Orange Wizard]

http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195418
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289

http://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2o02ul/cmv_i_think_transgenderism_is_a_mental_health/cmih4oh?context=3

That's pretty interesting, actually. In terms of gender roles, though... I'm not sure.

[MDFification]

There certainly is a biological process which leads people to identify with male or female gender roles (or neither) innately.

Citation Needed if you don't read the rest of the thread, yes.

[Graknorke]

Yes the rest of the thread where this specific question was answered with links to articles about it. You remember that part of the thread right?

[smeeprocket]

Biology and psychology are very closely linked to the point where they are often indistinguishable. I can understand that dwarves may have genital dysphoria of some sort, but what is there that they can really do about it? Acting as the opposite gender would be acting the same for them.

Would you not consider a condition that leads to desire to mutilate one's genitals, or even commit suicide, to be some form of disability? Manic depression is certainly considered such, as do various problems involving delusions. Of course, hormone treatment or even operations may be the best treatment for this, but it is still something that must be treated.

wow...

It's not a mental illness. No one wants to "mutilate" their genitals. It's not like one day you realize you are transgender and you hack off your penis. It isn't the biological differences that cause one to commit suicide. One does not realize they are transgender and then get suicidal. The issue is the complete and utter rejection of their gender by family, friends, society, violence aimed at them and general bigotry.

Hormone therapy and surgery (which many people choose not to undertake, not including those that identify as genderfluid and don't want an assigned gender at all) only make one's genitals match the rest of them, which helps one feel complete, and prevents a lot of the rampant violence against you.

I don't feel you are in anyway qualified to make a statement about transgendered individuals being mentally ill. The APA would disagree with you, and they are more qualified.

But hey, don't let that get in your way. Massive leaps in logic and base, uneducated conjecture are a great way to learn.