Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: a thought about Armok  (Read 2878 times)

§k

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 11:22:25 pm »

Armok is David Bowie.
Logged
All of them are wearing copper and Iron masks saying "in a time before time somebody attacked somebody"

Show undead posts since last visit.

Dirst

  • Bay Watcher
  • [EASILY_DISTRA
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 11:23:47 am »

If Armok is omnipotent, he is infallible, since he would be able to avoid all bugs. All things we perceive as mistakes must thus far intended.
There's no reason to believe Armok is omnipotent, either.  Armok can forge a universe, and maybe destroy one... that doesn't imply the ability to see everything inside and manipulate it at whim.  That's more Flying Spaghetti Monster territory.
Logged
Just got back, updating:
(0.42 & 0.43) The Earth Strikes Back! v2.15 - Pay attention...  It's a mine!  It's-a not yours!
(0.42 & 0.43) Appearance Tweaks v1.03 - Tease those hippies about their pointy ears.
(0.42 & 0.43) Accessibility Utility v1.04 - Console tools to navigate the map

Miuramir

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 02:50:19 pm »

If Armok is omnipotent, he is infallible...

That depends on your definitional framework.  One traditional view is that supreme deity-ness is comprised of three factors: omni-potence (unlimited power in strength, coverage, and range), omni-presence (unlimited viewpoint & knowledge in strength, coverage, and range), and omni-benevolence (unlimited mercy in strength, coverage, and range).  Many "lesser" powerful beings of myth, legend, religion, and fiction are less than unlimited in some of these aspects; just like Superman is more interesting because of Kryptonite, these limitations usually make for more interesting stories. 

In some settings, it can be postulated that an entity might be capable of creating a vast and complex world, of ultimately being able to control the destiny of things small and great within it, but not having perfect information on what is going on; and not necessarily either willing or able to interfere in certain situations. 

Consider the player of DF *from the standpoint of the dwarves in the simulation*... you created their world, and using both built-in and memory hacking tools can make drastic changes.  You can smite or resurrect dwarves, change their thoughts and genders, give them super-powers or horrible curses... yet how often do you actually bother to do so?  You have the *power* to do almost anything, but usually only wield it in furtherance of your own goals, or when some individual catches your fancy due to heroic or eccentric behavior.  You can also end up distracted by events elsewhere; many posts on the forums mention dwarves found starving or dead because their overseer was distracted or preoccupied. 

Consider: truly omnipotent power would be so far above the level needed to create a universe that it requires tricky math to even compare one to the other.  Let's represent the power to create, populate, and minimally oversee a universe as 1.  A being of unlimited power should be able to create an infinite number of such universes, right?  So that's a power of ∞.  But shouldn't they be capable of creating *another* being, lesser than themselves, who nevertheless can create universes?  Why not an infinite number of such beings, creating an infinite number of universes each?  What if these beings could themselves create still lesser beings, but still capable of creating infinite universes... and infinite-universe-creating-lesser-beings?  Why not have an infinite hierarchy of such beings?  Why not create an infinite number of beings who can each create an infinite number of such infinite hierarchies?  All this is *still* less powerful than "omnipotent". 

When most people talk about "unlimited" power, it's sadly pretty limited.  Someone with a better knowledge of cardinality can probably construct a sequence of unlimited power that dwarfs (pun intended) the above cascade; I will point out that Toady One has a PhD in mathematics from Stanford.  (Math is a vengeful god, and his name is Armok?  :) 
Logged

Armok

  • Bay Watcher
  • God of Blood
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2014, 04:13:03 am »

Hi! :)
Logged
So says Armok, God of blood.
Sszsszssoo...
Sszsszssaaayysss...
III...

Naryar

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SPHERE:VERMIN][LIKES_FIGHTING]
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2014, 08:17:18 am »

Hi! :)

Lord Armok ! How may I earn your favor today ?

If Armok is omnipotent, he is infallible...

That depends on your definitional framework.  One traditional view is that supreme deity-ness is comprised of three factors: omni-potence (unlimited power in strength, coverage, and range), omni-presence (unlimited viewpoint & knowledge in strength, coverage, and range), and omni-benevolence (unlimited mercy in strength, coverage, and range).  Many "lesser" powerful beings of myth, legend, religion, and fiction are less than unlimited in some of these aspects; just like Superman is more interesting because of Kryptonite, these limitations usually make for more interesting stories. 

In some settings, it can be postulated that an entity might be capable of creating a vast and complex world, of ultimately being able to control the destiny of things small and great within it, but not having perfect information on what is going on; and not necessarily either willing or able to interfere in certain situations. 

Consider the player of DF *from the standpoint of the dwarves in the simulation*... you created their world, and using both built-in and memory hacking tools can make drastic changes.  You can smite or resurrect dwarves, change their thoughts and genders, give them super-powers or horrible curses... yet how often do you actually bother to do so?  You have the *power* to do almost anything, but usually only wield it in furtherance of your own goals, or when some individual catches your fancy due to heroic or eccentric behavior.  You can also end up distracted by events elsewhere; many posts on the forums mention dwarves found starving or dead because their overseer was distracted or preoccupied. 

Consider: truly omnipotent power would be so far above the level needed to create a universe that it requires tricky math to even compare one to the other.  Let's represent the power to create, populate, and minimally oversee a universe as 1.  A being of unlimited power should be able to create an infinite number of such universes, right?  So that's a power of ∞.  But shouldn't they be capable of creating *another* being, lesser than themselves, who nevertheless can create universes?  Why not an infinite number of such beings, creating an infinite number of universes each?  What if these beings could themselves create still lesser beings, but still capable of creating infinite universes... and infinite-universe-creating-lesser-beings?  Why not have an infinite hierarchy of such beings?  Why not create an infinite number of beings who can each create an infinite number of such infinite hierarchies?  All this is *still* less powerful than "omnipotent". 

When most people talk about "unlimited" power, it's sadly pretty limited.  Someone with a better knowledge of cardinality can probably construct a sequence of unlimited power that dwarfs (pun intended) the above cascade; I will point out that Toady One has a PhD in mathematics from Stanford.  (Math is a vengeful god, and his name is Armok?  :) 


Actually, yes. Armok may be omnipotent, but it doesn't mean he will act everywhere at once. Else the universe would be predictable to his eyes, hence boring. And Armok hates being bored most of all.

At least that's how I see it.

*realizes he is doing theology just next to his god*

I HOPE I HAVE NOT DISPLEASED YOU, MY LORD








evictedSaint

  • Bay Watcher
  • if (ANNOYED_W_FANS==true) { KILL_CHAR(rand()); }
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2014, 12:10:38 pm »

IIRC, I talked about the gods in my comic...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Armok

  • Bay Watcher
  • God of Blood
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2014, 08:22:43 pm »


Lord Armok ! How may I earn your favor today ?


*realizes he is doing theology just next to his god*

I HOPE I HAVE NOT DISPLEASED YOU, MY LORD
IIRC, I talked about the gods in my comic...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This. This is how you gain you favor. Amazing art. :)
Logged
So says Armok, God of blood.
Sszsszssoo...
Sszsszssaaayysss...
III...

reality.auditor

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: a thought about Armok
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2014, 07:30:10 pm »

If Armok is omnipotent, he is infallible
Nope. Omnipotence is very different from omniknowledge. Of course, you can use omnipotence to gain omniknowledge, but this is different story. (I will take aside fact that concept of omnipotence is selfcontradictory and illogical)

And you all guys think way too much. My headcanon is simplest of them all.

Player is Armok.
Logged
Are weapons like the least lethal thing in DF?
Pages: 1 [2]