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[Edwin]

I respect the fact that DF is not free or even open source but I'm wondering why. I can understand that bay12 don't want any outside help in the coding of the game, but might it not increase its popularity by distributing it with the code, so players could poke around and modify the game for their own benefit (as I'd like to speed it up a bit)? After all the game is free of charge to download and play, just unnervingly restrictive over what users can do with it.

The other thing is why is it compiled for Windows when a lot of ascii gamers use GNU/Linux?

[Draxxalon]

A couple quick responses:

Re: Linux
-A port attempt is underway.   The game is not actually ascii, it is openGL rendering tiles (which are ascii characters).

Read this thread for the status of the port attempt of Kobold Quest (same derivative engine):  http://www.bay12games.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000659

Re: Opensource
-Its no longer "their game" if they do that.  And too many chefs in the kitchen can spoil a meal pretty quickly.  Just read the suggestions threads to see how drasitc of different directions some people would take the game...  

And whatever personal reasons that Toady has

[karnot]

quote:but might it not increase its popularity by distributing it with the code, so players could poke around and modify the game for their own benefit (as I'd like to speed it up a bit)?  

Riiiighto. Compare ADoM with NetHack, will you ? One is finely written, and purposefully thought through, the other is merely a dump of everything and the kitchen sink (i am not kidding, THERE IS A KITCHEN SINK in NetHack !!!). Thats what you get with open-sourse.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by karnot:
<STRONG>

Riiiighto. Compare ADoM with NetHack, will you ? One is finely written, and purposefully thought through, the other is merely a dump of everything and the kitchen sink (i am not kidding, THERE IS A KITCHEN SINK in NetHack !!!). Thats what you get with open-sourse.</STRONG>

I've heard on four different occasions that ADoM is rather sloppily coded, actually- and 'thought through' is relative- if you kill certain NPCs that don't have corpse data, the game crashes and explodes your save.  That, and Nethack easily being one of the most popular and refined Roguelikes,  I don't really see how your example stands up.  

Anyways, I believe Toady just doesn't want to have to bother with any legal junk, as well as DF being more important to him than just 'a game'; he's stated many times that it is a personal quest of his.  Toady certainly shows an unstoppable determination, as well as a creative flair that I can not imagine the ADoM guy having.

Perhaps in the future there will be more editing tools available to players.

[lumin]

From what I've heard there will be a lot of ways to edit the "seeds" for the maps, like number and types of creatures, civs, size etc.   Already, the game can be modded with new creatures, items, and civs from the raw directory.  So it's not like the game is completely locked from the community.

In fact, I would consider this a very moddable game.

I think Open-Source is just a bad a idea for this particular project.  I say that just because Toady One has done such a spectacular job already on it -- alone.  From what I see, he doesn't really need a whole lot of help from the community yet.  He releases updates every week, and constantly reads/responds to the forums.  Maybe once the project starts to die (he gets too busy, his work starts to suck), then, perhaps the community could help develop.

Now look at other projects like UFO: Alien Invasion (an open-source XCOM remake).  They NEED lots of help!  The game sucks rocks so far.

[Edwin]

True, and I know their are certain files you can edit to change the balance of the game.

I'm not knocking what Toady has done in any way, I just think it would be nice if the source was available too. I'm not saying that the community should help write it, but making the source available would allow people to create their own mods and forks, but with the credit for the engine going to Toady. Surley that would be a good thing? Afterall there is no commercial value in the game is there?

Nobody has answered why this game is compiled for Windows rather than GNU/Linux.

[ November 15, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin ]

[X]

Edwin, because people are all mouth and no trousers. Sure, porting the game wouldn't be a problem, adding a tile graphics system would only take a days's work, people would be happy to help out translating it into other languages, etc etc.

When the pedal hits the metal though, what you actually get is a bunch of people with patchy techincal abilities and worse social skills trying to collaborate, and it's often not pretty. Why would Toad want to spend his time herding cats rather than doing what he enjoys, which is programming games?

Mozilla was open sourced in 1998, it actually managed to get better than Internet Explorer in about 2005. GNU started in 1983 and STILL doesn't have its own kernel. Unix has been around for years, and available open source for at least 15, and still most real people choose a crappy operating system that they pay money for. What part of OPEN SOURCE IS NOT A MAGIC BULLET isn't getting through to people?

Want to prove me wrong, Kobold Quest was kindly released by the Toad under the (three clause) BSD licence on 2006-09-10 - you can port it, give it tiles, or translate it, knock yourself out.

X

[Capntastic]

I'm not one to cheerlead, but X up there puts the truth out there in a clear, concise, and stylish manner.  I don't think it would be possible for someone to refute the evidence he laid out.

[Maximus]

quote:Originally posted by Edwin:
I'm not saying that the community should help write it, but making the source available would allow people to create their own mods and forks, but with the credit for the engine going to Toady. Surley that would be a good thing?

'Cause it's not the engine that's special -- it's the content.  And Toady's still feverishly adding content (he's in a Strange Mood, that One).  

Dwarf Fortress is clearly his creative outlet.  To me, these calls for open-sourcing it make no more sense to me than urging David Chase to open-source The Sopranos.  DF isn't a utility.  It's a vision.  Toady's vision.  And I marvel at the stuff he's dreaming up.

[seizer]

quote:Originally posted by karnot:
<STRONG>

Riiiighto. Compare ADoM with NetHack, will you ? One is finely written, and purposefully thought through, the other is merely a dump of everything and the kitchen sink (i am not kidding, THERE IS A KITCHEN SINK in NetHack !!!). Thats what you get with open-sourse.</STRONG>

Wow, I have the exact opposite opinion of the games. And while NetHack is technically open-source, the official versions (which are what people play) are developed (or used to be, atleast) by a very small group of people.

[Fourth Triad]

Have any of you even seen any of toad's source? If you dare click on the links(listed in order of easiness to understand):
http://www.bay12games.com/curses/bloodcave_source.zip
http://www.bay12games.com/ww1medic/source.zip

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>I'm not one to cheerlead</STRONG>

Well I am.  Preach it X, preach it.  

I've gotta say that this is the exact opposite reaction from what I had expected, and I am awed and humbled by pragmatic reasoning displayed here.  It is an extremely small minority that both understands and is capable of articulating the inherant shortcomings in OSS, and the implicit value of well visioned development.

I don't meant to cast stones at OSS, as it has produced a great deal of innovation and has even driven competing products out of their complacency and stagnation.  But its important to realize where it has a place and where it doesnt.

[Toady One]

To be fair, Edwin has been clear that he wasn't asking for DF to become a community project, so the discussion isn't really addressing his question.  The response on the FAQ is more to this community project variant of the open source question.

It's true that I don't want to collaborate more than I already am.  That doesn't rule out opening the source for forks.  DF is already mod-able, so the comments about diluting the vision and so on don't address the core issue.

It really does have to come down to the value of keeping the source closed to my brother and I, personally (and I'm not speaking for him in this post).  Does DF have commercial value?  Not much, on a grand scale, but it has paid my rent for the last three months.  Would it be cool to write games full time, living solely on the donations of people that are enjoying them?  Yeah, that's my dream, and I'm going to try it out next year when my current position expires.  You can support me for as long as you like, before you send me back to the workforce.

The responses on ports are correct...  If the question was why it wasn't originally developed for another operating system, it's because I'm not running those.

[Misterstone]

quote:  Does DF have commercial value? Not much, on a grand scale, but it has paid my rent for the last three months. Would it be cool to write games full time, living solely on the donations of people that are enjoying them? Yeah, that's my dream, and I'm going to try it out next year when my current position expires. You can support me for as long as you like, before you send me back to the workforce.

I'm glad to hear that the donations are significant enough to improve your quality of life!  My recent and only donation was pretty modest, but I'm planning to make a less modest one when the game reaches Beta stage and again for (*gasp*) a full release.

Anyone who loves this game, send in a check, dangit!

Good luck with the donations, Toady!

[karnot]

quote:I've heard on four different occasions that ADoM is rather sloppily coded, actually  

I said "written", not "coded".

quote:  if you kill certain NPCs that don't have corpse data, the game crashes and explodes your save.

Never heard of such nonsense.

quote: That, and Nethack easily being one of the most popular and refined Roguelikes, I don't really see how your example stands up.

Only by force of habit. I cant see how my example cant stand up.