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[smeeprocket]

I don't *want* those things in the game, but the extreme politically correct and irrational reaction against them when the game is a blood and guts fest anyway is silly, as is your "MUST CENSOR TOADY PLEASE CENSOR AND REMOVE". Toady already included all the things you find scary, so deal with it.

And, honestly, extreme violence is still worse then those things, despite whatever desensitization you have to it. Learn to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

so basically what you are saying is that because you as a male have not experienced these things in real life, and they aren't traumatic and triggering for you, it is "politically correct" for the rest of us and stupid and we should just get over it.

Talk about entitled.

Here's the thing about political correctness. It simply requires you respect others around you. If you have a problem with things being "too PC" you might want to reevaluate your priorities. Because obviously you derive pleasure from causing others suffering and from things that cause them suffering. This is a problem with you as a person, not anyone else.

extreme violence is not worse than rape or slavery. (which usually go hand in hand.) Perhaps this is worse to you because it threatens you. But the violence in DF is really very ridiculous and not realistic. No one is going to have PTSD flashbacks over it. I don't think you getting to watch ascii characters rape each other and getting to read it in graphic detail (or even not graphic detail) in the reports log is a right, certainly much less of one than it is the right of victims not to have to be exposed to that.

Empathy is a great trait to have. I suggest nurturing it and trying to obtain it in general. Life is so much more complex when you realize the lives around you matter as much as your own.

We are creeping up on almost half of gamers being female now, btw. You won't get to have your boy's club forever. Eventually you will have to share your privilege.

You have no idea who I am or anything about me. Fuck off.

Well that was civil.

I respond to what you post, I don't need or want a personal essay on your life.

You present yourself in a certain way, expect to be treated in a manner that suits the way you behave.

[Urist Tilaturist]

To smeeprocket, and other rape/slavery exceptionalists:

Dwarves are not moral! Have you seen the things they do? Deliberately exposing their own troops to forgotten beast poison to make painless, fireproof soldiers sounds straight out of Unit 731, and that is just the start of it. Torture of various forms is in the game, with goblins pitted and slowly beaten or shot to death by recruits with training weapons. Rape? Yes, they do that too. Ask Obok Meatgod (though I do concede that that involved some modding and had nothing to do with Toady).

"People don't usually have magma-related accidents?" Tell that to the people who lived near Nevado del Ruiz in 1985. Most of them, over 25,000, died in horrific mudslides caused by the volcano. Would you remove magma from the game because of this? I can understand why you would want to if you had seen your family engulfed in volcanic mud. I would also doubt that you would continue to see it as just "over the top violence", either.

But you also have the option of not playing the game.

Dwarf Fortress is, if you have not noticed, mostly a gallery of macabre horrors. This has been evident ever since Boatmurdered. And, sure enough, many of the things that happen have happened to real people. If you had seen your family crushed by elephants - and some people have - then Boatmurdered would not be nearly as entertaining. So don't read it. I doubt many people who are sensitive to violence would play Dwarf Fortress given the stories of blood-drenched mutilation and magma that surround it. Why should Toady censor his game just in case somebody gets offended? He is not trying to trigger anyone, just to make his game.

"You don't play humans"? Have you ever played adventure mode? You can turn into a werebeast or a necromancer, for Armok's sake. Does not commanding an army of the dead count as a form of slavery? Besides, real slaves in ancient times were often treated far better than dwarves are treated now. It was undoubtedly better to be a slave in a rich Roman's house than to be locked in a tiny cell and left to die of thirst.

Though I disagree with your other points, I respect them. What I do not respect is turning your sex into a point of argument. None of us in favour of more horror in DF have ever expressed any intention to repel women to my knowledge. It is true that rape is not dealt with properly in the USA, but guess what - it's not dealt with properly when men get raped, either. Check out this website if you want to see: http://spr.igc.org/en/survivorstories/main.html But I do not think - and correct me if I am wrong - that you have ever mentioned this in your diatribes as to why fictional characters should not rape unless it is a "plot" and is only "implied" (how on earth does that make it any better for the victim?) People having their heads sliced off is a very real issue too - look at Mexico and Iraq/Syria for the most obvious examples. What if - just what if - female DF players could actually distinguish between some ASCII characters on a screen and reality, and did not give up?

You are not a slave, as far as I know, anyway. You have the right to leave if you do not like the way DF is going. You also have the right to express your opinions. What you do not have is the right to make Toady, or anyone else, listen to them.

[k33n]

I don't want to be chided to by someone who thinks they speak on behalf of a gender, I don't want to be insulted based on my gender. I don't want someone to speak on behalf of all rape victims, of people who suffer from PTSD, and I CERTAINLY don't want that person telling an artist what they can and cant do with their game.

[Col_Jessep]

I don't think we need rape, torture or slavery for dwarfs but I'd love to be able to exile a dwarf for a crime. Something like assaulting another dwarf and maiming him. He should get his regular sentence and you should be able to exile him if you feel it's necessary.

Dwarf Fortress is meant to be fun and light-hearted.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on this. You have read the combat logs, right? ;P

I think Toady probably tried to remove some of the stuff like the original dwarven day care. It's not his fault that we keep inventing new, horrible methods to create the perfect 12 year-old super soldier who doesn't feel anything while he tears through small, fluffy, innocent creatures with his masterwork battleaxe. xD

[Rolan7]

You are not a slave, as far as I know, anyway. You have the right to leave if you do not like the way DF is going. You also have the right to express your opinions. What you do not have is the right to make Toady, or anyone else, listen to them.

This is a dwarf fortress discussion forum...  None of us are entitled to have our ideas implemented, but the point is to share and discuss them.  And "Rape is very disturbing to a lot of people and should be handled carefully or not at all" is a valid criticism.  "If you don't like it, leave" is a pointless personal attack.  Since you aren't forced to listen to criticism, and aren't prepared to respond to it constructively, why reply to it?

I don't want to be chided to by someone who thinks they speak on behalf of a gender, I don't want to be insulted based on my gender. I don't want someone to speak on behalf of all rape victims, of people who suffer from PTSD, and I CERTAINLY don't want that person telling an artist what they can and cant do with their game.

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

[smeeprocket]

I don't *want* those things in the game, but the extreme politically correct and irrational reaction against them when the game is a blood and guts fest anyway is silly, as is your "MUST CENSOR TOADY PLEASE CENSOR AND REMOVE". Toady already included all the things you find scary, so deal with it.

And, honestly, extreme violence is still worse then those things, despite whatever desensitization you have to it. Learn to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

so basically what you are saying is that because you as a male have not experienced these things in real life, and they aren't traumatic and triggering for you, it is "politically correct" for the rest of us and stupid and we should just get over it.

Talk about entitled.

Here's the thing about political correctness. It simply requires you respect others around you. If you have a problem with things being "too PC" you might want to reevaluate your priorities. Because obviously you derive pleasure from causing others suffering and from things that cause them suffering. This is a problem with you as a person, not anyone else.

extreme violence is not worse than rape or slavery. (which usually go hand in hand.) Perhaps this is worse to you because it threatens you. But the violence in DF is really very ridiculous and not realistic. No one is going to have PTSD flashbacks over it. I don't think you getting to watch ascii characters rape each other and getting to read it in graphic detail (or even not graphic detail) in the reports log is a right, certainly much less of one than it is the right of victims not to have to be exposed to that.

Empathy is a great trait to have. I suggest nurturing it and trying to obtain it in general. Life is so much more complex when you realize the lives around you matter as much as your own.

We are creeping up on almost half of gamers being female now, btw. You won't get to have your boy's club forever. Eventually you will have to share your privilege.

You have no idea who I am or anything about me. Fuck off.

Well that was civil.

I respond to what you post, I don't need or want a personal essay on your life.

You present yourself in a certain way, expect to be treated in a manner that suits the way you behave.

I don't want to be chided to by someone who thinks they speak on behalf of a gender, I don't want to be insulted based on my gender. I don't want someone to speak on behalf of all rape victims, of people who suffer from PTSD, and I CERTAINLY don't want that person telling an artist what they can and cant do with their game.

You are making up a lot of excuses for your apathy and aggression. I mean, if you stay angry, you don't have to think about what you are saying. I don't speak on behalf of all women or rape victims or people who suffer from PTSD. I speak as a person who has spent a lot of time dealing with this stuff, who was sexually assaulted as a child, and who is a woman. I speak as someone who makes the related causes her business. Something I suspect you have not done. You seem wholly unconcerned about the plight of others or what pain is caused to them.

Urist: The idea that women can just "not play" so you can have your little boy's club and keep being awful human beings is not acceptable. Like I said, we make up almost half of the gaming audience. We should be represented equally. We should not have to make do or suffer indignities because of something you want.

Dwarves are very moral. They don't approve of slavery, rape, or torture. You may enact those things in one way or another, but Toady has put very strict ethics in place for the dwarves. If you don't like those ethics, you are welcome to mod the game to be deranged and depraved. There is no reason to have it in vanilla. People have already modded in rape before. It's disgusting, and they are deplorable human beings, but hey, what you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my concern as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.

I assume you just looked up volcano tragedy on google to sound smart, I think we can both assume that incidences of rape and human trafficking happen more than tragic magma incidences.

[k33n]

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

It stopped being civil when the sexist attacks started.

You have zero reading comprehension and I very much hope you are just trolling.

[smeeprocket]

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

It stopped being civil when the sexist attacks started.

1. there is no such thing as sexism when there is not a system of oppression in place to support it.

2. You do in fact experience privilege by virtue of the gender of your birth. This is not sexist for me to point out, it is a truth. To say otherwise is simply erasure.

No sexism has happened here, so you can stop crying "misandry" and take those complaints to A Voice For Men where somebody will care.

[Rolan7]

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

It stopped being civil when the sexist attacks started.

I think it was when someone shared an opinion and someone else replied with all-caps, "deal with it", and "fuck off".

[k33n]

Whatever, you are reported.

[smeeprocket]

Whatever, you are reported.

you told me to fuck off... and then reported me.

Okay sure, that happened. I'll await my ban.

[k33n]

Whatever, you are reported.

you told me to fuck off... and then reported me.

Okay sure, that happened. I'll await my ban.

I told you to fuck off when you began your sexist attacks on those who disagree with you.

[pisskop]

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

It stopped being civil when the sexist attacks started.

1. there is no such thing as sexism when there is not a system of oppression in place to support it.

2. You do in fact experience privilege by virtue of the gender of your birth. This is not sexist for me to point out, it is a truth. To say otherwise is simply erasure.

If you dont mind I think I would like a thread for this.

1.) is wrong and 2.) is highly subjective.

[smeeprocket]

As you said about graphic depictions of rape and slavery, "deal with it".  Also, nobody in this thread is telling Toady what to do.  It was a civil discussion.

It stopped being civil when the sexist attacks started.

1. there is no such thing as sexism when there is not a system of oppression in place to support it.

2. You do in fact experience privilege by virtue of the gender of your birth. This is not sexist for me to point out, it is a truth. To say otherwise is simply erasure.

If you dont mind I think I would like a thread for this.

1.) is wrong and 2.) is highly subjective.

I disagree. Guys own a position of power in our society, as a woman, I can call you a sexist pig or demean you, but it has no real effect. You, as a man, have a lot of power to hurt me though, and the system supports it.

Therefore, I can be bigoted towards men, but it is not sexism. There is nothing propping it up or making it strong.

The second point isn't even a debate, you are not in a position to decide if that is or is not the case. You are not a woman, nor have you ever been. You will never have any idea what we experience because of our gender. I think the majority of women (certainly not all) would agree with me when I say we deal with some shit you will never deal with simply because we are women.

I mean, I am more likely to be raped outside of prison than you are inside of it. I get paid 75 cents to every dollar you make, I am more likely to be a poor single parent, I am more likely to be exploited. If you abuse me in a relationship, your punishment, if any, will be minor if you kill me. But if I kill you to protect myself, I will actually be sent to jail for significantly longer.

Just a small sampling of the shit we deal with that will never trouble. Unless you start caring about what happens to other people.

[Urist Tilaturist]

...No, I did actually know about Nevado de Ruiz, and Montserrat, and a number of other volcanic disasters. Assumptions are unwise.

I am very sorry about what happened to you, but it is not the fault of me, Toady or any one of us here. Dwarf Fortress is just a game. No one really gets raped in DF. One of my uncle's friends was butchered by pirates in Kenya. That doesn't mean that any of our family should campaign for Toady to remove piracy or butchery from the game. If we found it offensive, we could mod it out or stop playing.

There is no misandry going on here. There is just a cry from somebody not to have her past trauma reflected in somebody else's fictional game. And that is not a right anyone has. You then claimed that I wanted all women to leave instead of just offering them the chance to if they didn't want to stay. The same rule applies to male victims of rape or any other kind of trauma who also do not want to play.

Rape and human trafficking is more common than magma disasters, but is it more common than brutal violence of any other kind which is already in game? No one knows for sure. It may be. What we do know is that murder and assault are very common indeed, and happen to both sexes every day.