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[Dwarf4Explosives]

Ignoring the whole bible discussion stuff, I've got to say that selling the nobles as slaves appeals to me. Perfect justice for their practice of jailing innocent dwarves just because they couldn't fullfill their 27th impossible desire. Also, it's nice to see that we've found a replacement for the concept of "unfortunate accidents" that works in DF2014.

[§k]

A king would keep arriving at the fort, only to be sold back.

[smeeprocket]

I prefer DF sans slavery or other awful things that are quite intentionally left out. It's a bug that will hopefully be fixed.

DF is about comically over the top violence at its worst (and that is not a bad thing) but serious topics like slavery and rape should not be involved.

I would play grand theft auto if I wanted to be exposed to these kinds of unpleasantness. Things like torture are not in the game for a reason. You, as the player, might manufacture torture in some form, but the dwarves themselves are a rather moral people.

Putting these things in the game (as opposed to players finding a way to enable them) is either condoning them or mishandling the subject (more likely the latter.)

[k33n]

I prefer DF sans slavery or other awful things that are quite intentionally left out. It's a bug that will hopefully be fixed.

DF is about comically over the top violence at its worst (and that is not a bad thing) but serious topics like slavery and rape should not be involved.

I would play grand theft auto if I wanted to be exposed to these kinds of unpleasantness. Things like torture are not in the game for a reason. You, as the player, might manufacture torture in some form, but the dwarves themselves are a rather moral people.

Putting these things in the game (as opposed to players finding a way to enable them) is either condoning them or mishandling the subject (more likely the latter.)

Rape AND Slavery have been in the game since forever. What do you think Night Trolls do? Human cities are loaded with slaves.

And it is a bold statement to say that having all your organs boil off your bones as your bare skull screams impotently is somehow less bad then rape or slavery.

[smeeprocket]

I prefer DF sans slavery or other awful things that are quite intentionally left out. It's a bug that will hopefully be fixed.

DF is about comically over the top violence at its worst (and that is not a bad thing) but serious topics like slavery and rape should not be involved.

I would play grand theft auto if I wanted to be exposed to these kinds of unpleasantness. Things like torture are not in the game for a reason. You, as the player, might manufacture torture in some form, but the dwarves themselves are a rather moral people.

Putting these things in the game (as opposed to players finding a way to enable them) is either condoning them or mishandling the subject (more likely the latter.)

Rape AND Slavery have been in the game since forever. What do you think Night Trolls do? Human cities are loaded with slaves.

And it is a bold statement to say that having all your organs boil off your bones as your bare skull screams impotently is somehow less bad then rape or slavery.

you don't play night trolls. You don't play humans.

And yea, that is less bad. Because it's just straight up over the top violence. It isn't something that needs a deeper explanation or a careful handling (there is no way this game could handle rape properly, it really should never ever be used unless it is essential to a plot, and even then it should only be implied.)

People don't generally have magma accidents in real life. They are not a nationwide epidemic. 1 in 5 women has been raped, 1 in 3 if you are native american. These cases rarely get prosecuted, rarely even go to trial, and our society regularly condones them and justifies them.

Slavery... I shouldn't have to explain why slavery is just horrible or how human trafficking is a very real thing and is quite awful.

I get wanting a world with all the stuff in it that is awful that comes from real life, but some of us experienced this stuff in real life and play games to get away from awful things. Dwarf Fortress is meant to be fun and light-hearted. Not some men only factory of depravity. You're not only looking to alienate gamers that are not male, you are looking to alienate anyone who suffers this stuff in real life.

I mean, you talk about rape and slavery, and Ariel Castro comes to mind. That shit is awful to think about. Why would you want that to be in the game? Why would you want that there to trigger people who have suffered that kind of thing?

I'm sorry it inconveniences you and puts you out, but Toady has gone the right direction with this game. He makes it clear the guys you play (at least in his version of the game, mods notwithstanding) have moral standards and values that simply don't allow for the awful things from real life to bleed through.

[pisskop]

You're right.  Combat and decapitations and beating your citizens isn't too terrible to include into the game, but a functioning slavery mechanic is.  Also, that one part where nobility gets kidnapped and raped into dis-figuration?  Koolsauce.

I can understand your objection, sure.  But your response does nothing to debate your point.  All I saw was subjective opinion and situational acceptance.

[k33n]

I don't *want* those things in the game, but the extreme politically correct and irrational reaction against them when the game is a blood and guts fest anyway is silly, as is your "MUST CENSOR TOADY PLEASE CENSOR AND REMOVE". Toady already included all the things you find scary, so deal with it.

And, honestly, extreme violence is still worse then those things, despite whatever desensitization you have to it. Learn to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

[Rolan7]

You're right.  Combat and decapitations and beating your citizens isn't too terrible to include into the game, but a functioning slavery mechanic is.  Also, that one part where nobility gets kidnapped and raped into dis-figuration?  Koolsauce.

I can understand your objection, sure.  But your response does nothing to debate your point.  All I saw was subjective opinion and situational acceptance.

Like they said, the playable race doesn't do slavery or rape.  They aren't cool sauce, but they also don't happen in normal fortress mode.  The player doesn't have to observe it.

Beatings are sick if you think about them, but they're easily avoided or nerfed if the player desires.

Combat violence is a core part of the game, and more a necessary evil than the other things.  Even it can be almost entirely avoided via fortress design.

I am now extremely curious about what happens to the sold dwarfs in legends mode.

I doubt they go anywhere.  I would like to know, though +1

I'm curious about this too!  I see this glitch as enabling an ad-hoc emigration system!  Something I've always wished for in DF.  My guess would be that all entities leaving the fortress become (or have a chance to become) historical figures.  When I get a chance I'll try to test, but that could be a while.

As for slavery, while the discussion has been very interesting, I don't see how slaves would make a difference in fortress mode.  Adult non-nobles already do whatever they're ordered to do, pretty much exclusively.  Even slaves require breaks.  Maybe they wouldn't attend parties?  It just doesn't seem like slaves would behave much differently.

Though it could be fun to enslave goblins or other non-dwarves just for the sake of truly evil RP.  That belongs in a mod, though.

[Dyret]

snip

I agree on rape, there's no way to handle it in a tasteful or reasonable manner (and there is no way it's ever going in unless Toady keels over or something), but I disagree on torture and slavery... fantasy has handled those things 'cleanly' for decades, I also kind disagree with DF as is being lighthearted Mony Pythonesque fun. If you check your burial slabs or legends you'll see some pretty grim stuff. A seventeen year old 'beloved mother and wife' being celebrated on her gravestone as the creator of the artifact she never got enough silk for hit me harder than any shitty TV-series trying to make me feel stuff ever has.

[k33n]

Like they said, the playable race doesn't do slavery or rape.  They aren't cool sauce, but they also don't happen in normal fortress mode.  The player doesn't have to observe it.

A total non argument. The player encounters that shit all time in adventure mode. Better remove adventure mode lest it be a trigger. Religion is also a sensitive subject, so that can be removed as well. While we are at it lets remove children from the game, because all sorts of terrible stuff happens to them. Animal abuse is sad, so no animals either. War may be a trigger for veterans, so that has to go. All these races fighting is racist and offensive, and can't be dealt with properly in a game: it goes.

If you give people's "right to not be offended" any credence at all you might as well burn the world to the ground.

snip

I agree on rape, there's no way to handle in a tasteful or reasonable manner (and there is no way it's ever going in unless Toady keels over or something)

...It is already in the game.

[pisskop]

Wel, its fair to say it doesnt have to be the interactive part pf the game.  If you want Obuk, you can add it yourself.  But the slavery bit should be functional, if not in your fort than as part of adventure mode.  And I dont want dwarves mindlessly accepting that their lifetime career is being disbanded and now they will haul cheese and rocks about the rest of their days.  Some autonomy would be nice, and that could be a reflection of personality that required corrective action.

Slavery in the fort wouldn't happen unless ethics were changed, or (like I want) you are punished by the mountainhomes for deviation from ethics.  Things like embargo, disownership, or even sieges and forced retirement (the overseer loses the ability to play that fort) would make me happy.  And so would bounties, ransoms, and selling hostiles.

Emigration would be swell too, but thats not the point of this thread.

Indentured sevants is a thing dwarves could do; with captured races.  Things like cultural assimilation or 'correction' are not outside the realms of a self-appointed moral force.  Like the elves or the more touched dwarves.  And remember that there can be no greater tyranny than oppression in the name of progress.  *goblins already do it to children.*

---

[smeeprocket]

I don't *want* those things in the game, but the extreme politically correct and irrational reaction against them when the game is a blood and guts fest anyway is silly, as is your "MUST CENSOR TOADY PLEASE CENSOR AND REMOVE". Toady already included all the things you find scary, so deal with it.

And, honestly, extreme violence is still worse then those things, despite whatever desensitization you have to it. Learn to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

so basically what you are saying is that because you as a male have not experienced these things in real life, and they aren't traumatic and triggering for you, it is "politically correct" for the rest of us and stupid and we should just get over it.

Talk about entitled.

Here's the thing about political correctness. It simply requires you respect others around you. If you have a problem with things being "too PC" you might want to reevaluate your priorities. Because obviously you derive pleasure from causing others suffering and from things that cause them suffering. This is a problem with you as a person, not anyone else.

extreme violence is not worse than rape or slavery. (which usually go hand in hand.) Perhaps this is worse to you because it threatens you. But the violence in DF is really very ridiculous and not realistic. No one is going to have PTSD flashbacks over it. I don't think you getting to watch ascii characters rape each other and getting to read it in graphic detail (or even not graphic detail) in the reports log is a right, certainly much less of one than it is the right of victims not to have to be exposed to that.

Empathy is a great trait to have. I suggest nurturing it and trying to obtain it in general. Life is so much more complex when you realize the lives around you matter as much as your own.

We are creeping up on almost half of gamers being female now, btw. You won't get to have your boy's club forever. Eventually you will have to share your privilege.

[Dyret]

...It is already in the game.

In the sanitzed 'mountain troll is gonna make you his wife' fairytale sense. The implications are disturbing, but fairytales seem to get a free pass on a lot of things people would otherwise take exception to.

[smeeprocket]

...It is already in the game.

In the sanitzed 'mountain troll is gonna make you his wife' fairytale sense. The implications are disturbing, but fairytales seem to get a free pass on a lot of things people would otherwise take exception to.

Yea it disturbs me a little but it's something that happens in Legends and that's mostly it. You don't see it happening or get details on it.

I'm willing to deal with it, it doesn't mean it doesn't make me feel a little sick tho.

[k33n]

I don't *want* those things in the game, but the extreme politically correct and irrational reaction against them when the game is a blood and guts fest anyway is silly, as is your "MUST CENSOR TOADY PLEASE CENSOR AND REMOVE". Toady already included all the things you find scary, so deal with it.

And, honestly, extreme violence is still worse then those things, despite whatever desensitization you have to it. Learn to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

so basically what you are saying is that because you as a male have not experienced these things in real life, and they aren't traumatic and triggering for you, it is "politically correct" for the rest of us and stupid and we should just get over it.

Talk about entitled.

Here's the thing about political correctness. It simply requires you respect others around you. If you have a problem with things being "too PC" you might want to reevaluate your priorities. Because obviously you derive pleasure from causing others suffering and from things that cause them suffering. This is a problem with you as a person, not anyone else.

extreme violence is not worse than rape or slavery. (which usually go hand in hand.) Perhaps this is worse to you because it threatens you. But the violence in DF is really very ridiculous and not realistic. No one is going to have PTSD flashbacks over it. I don't think you getting to watch ascii characters rape each other and getting to read it in graphic detail (or even not graphic detail) in the reports log is a right, certainly much less of one than it is the right of victims not to have to be exposed to that.

Empathy is a great trait to have. I suggest nurturing it and trying to obtain it in general. Life is so much more complex when you realize the lives around you matter as much as your own.

We are creeping up on almost half of gamers being female now, btw. You won't get to have your boy's club forever. Eventually you will have to share your privilege.

You have no idea who I am or anything about me. Fuck off.