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[k33n]

I'm out.

[smeeprocket]

...No, I did actually know about Nevado de Ruiz, and Montserrat, and a number of other volcanic disasters. Assumptions are unwise.

I am very sorry about what happened to you, but it is not the fault of me, Toady or any one of us here. Dwarf Fortress is just a game. No one really gets raped in DF. One of my uncle's friends was butchered by pirates in Kenya. That doesn't mean that any of our family should campaign for Toady to remove piracy or butchery from the game. If we found it offensive, we could mod it out or stop playing.

There is no misandry going on here. There is just a cry from somebody not to have her past trauma reflected in somebody else's fictional game. And that is not a right anyone has. You then claimed that I wanted all women to leave instead of just offering them the chance to if they didn't want to stay. The same rule applies to male victims of rape or any other kind of trauma who also do not want to play.

Rape and human trafficking is more common than magma disasters, but is it more common than brutal violence of any other kind which is already in game? No one knows for sure. It may be. What we do know is that murder and assault are very common indeed, and happen to both sexes every day.

misandry is a mythological reference to a system of male oppression and sexism, I think you misread something I posted.

So what you are saying is, that it's not just women that don't have a place here, it's ALL victims of rape. There should be no respect or understanding towards all of them.

I never said you were responsible for any rape that has happened, but you are responsible for peddling rape culture and promoting it, just like so many other men.

But what you have to say in general is rather disrespectful. Why not just say "who cares" because that is what it sums up to. Not an issue for you so who cares. No reason to be inclusive when we can not do that.

I don't know why all of you keep acting like Toady is on your side. Rape and torture are currently not in the game in a way you can enact them. Toady has intentionally prevented that. It is you that are crying for people to include something that is damaging to others. You feel you are entitled to things that might disturb other people because to you, your needs are all that matter.

[smeeprocket]

I'm out.

No real need to announce it, you are your own person and none of us is going to force you to stay.

[Dyret]

Urist: The idea that women can just "not play" so you can have your little boy's club and keep being awful human beings is not acceptable. Like I said, we make up almost half of the gaming audience. We should be represented equally. We should not have to make do or suffer indignities because of something you want.

The "misogynic boy's club" rhetoric is unhelpful. Remember your own advice about empathy and treating people like people. Misogyny is an ugly thing, and people will instantly go on the defensive if accused of it, if you feel people aren't equipped to understand your point of view, help them, don't accuse them. I don't really believe in male privilege (or white privilege for that matter, too ethnocentric) but I could be wrong, and if I am, I am still convinced most men don't wield theirs agressively as a weapon. Please don't treat them as such.

[Urist Tilaturist]

...No, I did actually know about Nevado de Ruiz, and Montserrat, and a number of other volcanic disasters. Assumptions are unwise.

I am very sorry about what happened to you, but it is not the fault of me, Toady or any one of us here. Dwarf Fortress is just a game. No one really gets raped in DF. One of my uncle's friends was butchered by pirates in Kenya. That doesn't mean that any of our family should campaign for Toady to remove piracy or butchery from the game. If we found it offensive, we could mod it out or stop playing.

There is no misandry going on here. There is just a cry from somebody not to have her past trauma reflected in somebody else's fictional game. And that is not a right anyone has. You then claimed that I wanted all women to leave instead of just offering them the chance to if they didn't want to stay. The same rule applies to male victims of rape or any other kind of trauma who also do not want to play.

Rape and human trafficking is more common than magma disasters, but is it more common than brutal violence of any other kind which is already in game? No one knows for sure. It may be. What we do know is that murder and assault are very common indeed, and happen to both sexes every day.

misandry is a mythological reference to a system of male oppression and sexism, I think you misread something I posted.

So what you are saying is, that it's not just women that don't have a place here, it's ALL victims of rape. There should be no respect or understanding towards all of them.

I never said you were responsible for any rape that has happened, but you are responsible for peddling rape culture and promoting it, just like so many other men.

But what you have to say in general is rather disrespectful. Why not just say "who cares" because that is what it sums up to. Not an issue for you so who cares. No reason to be inclusive when we can not do that.

I don't know why all of you keep acting like Toady is on your side. Rape and torture are currently not in the game in a way you can enact them. Toady has intentionally prevented that. It is you that are crying for people to include something that is damaging to others. You feel you are entitled to things that might disturb other people because to you, your needs are all that matter.

Adventure mode allows playing as humans. Humans use torture and slavery in DF. We have not heard anything from Toady on this matter, but I strongly suggest that things will reach their logical conclusion.

I don't know how you think a game which is essentially a gore-splattered orgy of burning kittens and tying children to be mauled by dogs is somehow inclusive or not triggering to anyone who has been attacked by dogs or burned, for example. Rape is another trigger-inducing trauma, and though it may be more common it is not the only thing which can create these traumas. Non-sexual child abuse is certainly in DF, and many, many people have suffered that. If all potentially trauma-recalling things were removed, there would be no violence at all. But you seem fine with some of it.

I cannot remember ever even vaguely endorsing real life rapes or sexual violence. I do remember saying that I am sorry for the trauma that you experienced.

Actually, I do think male privilege still exists in many places.

[pisskop]

Yup, as the gal who fiendishly asked me how to slaughter and eat some pet bird's flesh I'm a little concerned intrigued with how surreal you make this game.  Its Grimm's on steroids to me. :p


The best part of a simulation is making it more complex.

[smeeprocket]

...No, I did actually know about Nevado de Ruiz, and Montserrat, and a number of other volcanic disasters. Assumptions are unwise.

I am very sorry about what happened to you, but it is not the fault of me, Toady or any one of us here. Dwarf Fortress is just a game. No one really gets raped in DF. One of my uncle's friends was butchered by pirates in Kenya. That doesn't mean that any of our family should campaign for Toady to remove piracy or butchery from the game. If we found it offensive, we could mod it out or stop playing.

There is no misandry going on here. There is just a cry from somebody not to have her past trauma reflected in somebody else's fictional game. And that is not a right anyone has. You then claimed that I wanted all women to leave instead of just offering them the chance to if they didn't want to stay. The same rule applies to male victims of rape or any other kind of trauma who also do not want to play.

Rape and human trafficking is more common than magma disasters, but is it more common than brutal violence of any other kind which is already in game? No one knows for sure. It may be. What we do know is that murder and assault are very common indeed, and happen to both sexes every day.

misandry is a mythological reference to a system of male oppression and sexism, I think you misread something I posted.

So what you are saying is, that it's not just women that don't have a place here, it's ALL victims of rape. There should be no respect or understanding towards all of them.

I never said you were responsible for any rape that has happened, but you are responsible for peddling rape culture and promoting it, just like so many other men.

But what you have to say in general is rather disrespectful. Why not just say "who cares" because that is what it sums up to. Not an issue for you so who cares. No reason to be inclusive when we can not do that.

I don't know why all of you keep acting like Toady is on your side. Rape and torture are currently not in the game in a way you can enact them. Toady has intentionally prevented that. It is you that are crying for people to include something that is damaging to others. You feel you are entitled to things that might disturb other people because to you, your needs are all that matter.

Adventure mode allows playing as humans. Humans use torture and slavery in DF. We have not heard anything from Toady on this matter, but I strongly suggest that things will reach their logical conclusion.

I don't know how you think a game which is essentially a gore-splattered orgy of burning kittens and tying children to be mauled by dogs is somehow inclusive or not triggering to anyone who has been attacked by dogs or burned, for example. Rape is another trigger-inducing trauma, and though it may be more common it is not the only thing which can create these traumas. Non-sexual child abuse is certainly in DF, and many, many people have suffered that. If all potentially trauma-recalling things were removed, there would be no violence at all. But you seem fine with some of it.

I cannot remember ever even vaguely endorsing real life rapes or sexual violence. I do remember saying that I am sorry for the trauma that you experienced.

Actually, I do think male privilege still exists in many places.

All of the things you mention are things you as the player choose to do. There is no torturing children system in place for dwarves, you have to get creative to do it.

Here is the bigger picture, sexual violence is very prevalent in this country, and is rarely punished. The kind of ridiculously complex violence you see in DF is more like a Saw movie. It gets absurd to the point where it just isn't a big deal. There is definitely a line between violence and rape and human trafficking. Violence can be accidental, it can be necessary, it will usually involve a prosecution if necessary. Rape and human trafficking are treated as nonissues, swept under the rug, used as props. Why add it to the game? Why add rape and slavery? Humans have slaves but I'm pretty sure you can't buy a slave or rape them in adventure mode.

Dyret, I doubt anything I say is going to be helpful to you. You simply believe that the problem does not exist. I can't force you to see a problem that you refuse to see. It is not within your realm of experience, and therefore you simply deny its existence. This only serves to hurt minorities and promotes the oppression of people because of their race, sexuality, gender, etc. You are, effectively, part of the problem by virtue of simply refusing to believe it exists.

[smeeprocket]

Yup, as the gal who fiendishly asked me how to slaughter and eat some pet bird's flesh I'm a little concerned intrigued with how surreal you make this game.  Its Grimm's on steroids to me. :p


The best part of a simulation is making it more complex.

I'm a vegan in real life, btw.

[k33n]

The kind of ridiculously complex violence you see in DF is more like a Saw movie. It gets absurd to the point where it just isn't a big deal.

This is your delusion, not fact.

There is definitely a line between violence and rape and human trafficking. Violence can be accidental, it can be necessary, it will usually involve a prosecution if necessary.

DF level violence (eg. Slow dismemberment, maiming, unimaginable pain and death) is much worse then rape or slavery.

Rape and human trafficking are treated as nonissues, swept under the rug, used as props.

It is fiction.

Why add it to the game? Why add rape and slavery?

Both, as many have patiently tried to tell you, are part of the game.

Humans have slaves but I'm pretty sure you can't buy a slave or rape them in adventure mode.

No, we free them and take them on adventures.

Dyret, I doubt anything I say is going to be helpful to you. You simply believe that the problem does not exist. I can't force you to see a problem that you refuse to see. It is not within your realm of experience, and therefore you simply deny its existence. This only serves to hurt minorities and promotes the oppression of people because of their race, sexuality, gender, etc. You are, effectively, part of the problem by virtue of simply refusing to believe it exists.

Do not accuse someone as being responsible for a culture of rape for disagreeing with you.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Violence in DF is not always complicated. The hammerdwarf strikes the dwarven child in the head and the part explodes into gore. The end. Violence like this, and even the saw film type violence, is real.

Rape and trafficking are very hard to deal with legally, because the victims are often too intimidated to report the crimes in the first place and it is often hard to find evidence beyond reasonable doubt. This is not true of murders, where the victim is dead and the corpse is usually there as proof that it happened. This is true regardless of the sex of the victim - men do not actually get away with killing women in the USA any more than they get away with killing other men if the law can deal with them.

Please explain how rape and trafficking are used as props in US society. Do you mean that they support the whole nation? That seems fairly unreasonable.

[k33n]

Violence in DF is not always complicated. The hammerdwarf strikes the dwarven child in the head and the part explodes into gore. The end. Violence like this, and even the saw film type violence, is real.

Rape and trafficking are very hard to deal with legally, because the victims are often too intimidated to report the crimes in the first place and it is often hard to find evidence beyond reasonable doubt. This is not true of murders, where the victim is dead and the corpse is usually there as proof that it happened. This is true regardless of the sex of the victim - men do not actually get away with killing women in the USA any more than they get away with killing other men if the law can deal with them.

Please explain how rape and trafficking are used as props in US society. Do you mean that they support the whole nation? That seems fairly unreasonable.

Well, apparently, you are the cause of rape and slavery, so I don't think your logic is going to make a dent.

[smeeprocket]

The kind of ridiculously complex violence you see in DF is more like a Saw movie. It gets absurd to the point where it just isn't a big deal.

This is your delusion, not fact.

There is definitely a line between violence and rape and human trafficking. Violence can be accidental, it can be necessary, it will usually involve a prosecution if necessary.

DF level violence (eg. Slow dismemberment, maiming, unimaginable pain and death) is much worse then rape or slavery.

Rape and human trafficking are treated as nonissues, swept under the rug, used as props.

It is fiction.

Why add it to the game? Why add rape and slavery?

Both, as many have patiently tried to tell you, are part of the game.

Humans have slaves but I'm pretty sure you can't buy a slave or rape them in adventure mode.

No, we free them and take them on adventures.

Dyret, I doubt anything I say is going to be helpful to you. You simply believe that the problem does not exist. I can't force you to see a problem that you refuse to see. It is not within your realm of experience, and therefore you simply deny its existence. This only serves to hurt minorities and promotes the oppression of people because of their race, sexuality, gender, etc. You are, effectively, part of the problem by virtue of simply refusing to believe it exists.

Do not accuse someone as being responsible for a culture of rape for disagreeing with you.

I thought you were out. Did you get bored and decide to come back? Either way, you are insulting me again, and if you want to have a discussion, you really should be more civil.

Children aren't punished in DF, Urist, you have to wait for them to grow up.

A lot of what I'm talking about relates to fiction, games, and hollywood with either male protagonists, or as a way to make things edgy. I could go into a detailed rundown on things like The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo or for example  The Hills Have Eyes, or even the many movies that use women as two dimensional victims. But that's a very long discussion that will get us way off topic.

K33n this might help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

participating in rape culture does not make you a rapist or responsible for rape. It just means you enable the rapist, whether intetionally or not.

[k33n]

Well you just piss me off so much

And I only insulted you when you were being an ignorant bigot.

Rape culture is a VERY controversial idea, even within feminism. I will just go ahead and say it doesn't exist. Don't you dare tell anyone here that they contribute to rape by picking apart your fallacies.

What you are saying is that all art should be purged of ideas that are offensive. That is what your argument boils down to. It is an extremely ugly idea.

If you are getting at the Sarkessian idea of "women as props" in art, then I will say you are wrong. EVERYTHING in art is a prop. 

[Urist Tilaturist]

Many of these game/films/culture also feature large numbers of men being massacred. These men are also pretty much 2 dimensional cannon fodder and victims. This is not misandry. Women being raped in fictional media is not misogyny either unless the developers endorse the acts and encourage consumers to repeat them in real life.

I thought rape culture in its original sense was a combination of endorsements of real rapes, victim blaming and lack of any legal prosecution for rape. I have not endorsed real rapes or accused you of being responsible for what happened to you, because that is obviously not the case. As for legal prosecution, that is not my responsibility, and I too would like to see sexual offences handled better by the law.

[smeeprocket]

Well you just piss me off so much

And I only insulted you when you were being an ignorant bigot.

Rape culture is a VERY controversial idea, even within feminism. I will just go ahead and say it doesn't exist. Don't you dare tell anyone here that they contribute to rape by picking apart your fallacies.

What you are saying is that all art should be purged of ideas that are offensive. That is what your argument boils down to. It is an extremely ugly idea.

If you are getting at the Sarkessian idea of "women as props" in art, then I will say you are wrong. EVERYTHING in art is a prop.

Really you are trying to tell me about feminism? Yea sorry rape culture is a base principle. It's existence is not in question among any feminists. There are lots of things feminists argue about, rape culture is not one of them. It's existence does not require you to believe in it however, though I'm sure you'd totally know if it was happening or not.

Can you not go one post without insulting me? Why do you keep attacking me? If I piss you off don't respond. Act civil or stop posting. It's not that hard.

I'm trying very hard to remain civil with you, but you can't exactly expect me to remain polite when you continue to abuse me.