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Author Topic: Operation Overlord, Day Five: Game Over! Town, Town-Ally, and Survivor Victory!  (Read 111690 times)

TheDarkStar

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I have a question, though: Why are we going after mafia when the enemies are stated to be German? Also, how much can we rely on the inspection results? Could we have the two cops target each other tonight to see what result they get?
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it happened it happened it happen im so hyped to actually get attacked now

4maskwolf

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I have a question, though: Why are we going after mafia when the enemies are stated to be German? Also, how much can we rely on the inspection results? Could we have the two cops target each other tonight to see what result they get?
Quick semantics note: I am using the alignment definitions provided for in the BYOR's.  So mafia doesn't literally mean mafia.

Fine, fine, fine, I'll update the OP for you Tiru.

Deus Asmoth

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In other news, I'm rapidly losing faith in out night watchmen.

...?

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Deus Asmoth targeted Tiruin last night. That's all I saw.
Just a joke. We seem be be unlucky in how much our guards see at night.
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Teneb

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PFP, over midnight, will post bigger tomorrow.

Deus, it seems you conveniently ignored Caz, the one you "inspected", being innocent. And then TolyK, who was an actual cop and revealed himself got NK'd. Funny, no?
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flabort

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flabort, since we had definite confirmation that TolyK was a cop, what do you have to say about your third party miller claim versus his result on you?
I still say it's darned strange that he didn't get either town or third party, but now am going to back the "there is a framer" theory a whole lot more.

Flabort:
 Why the...mindreading post there? It's a bit curious on how far you're predicting things. o_O
You're flipping out, for some reason. What're the thoughts that poked you that way?
I'm not sure what you mean by mindreading; if you mean guessing at the scum's motives for killing TolyK, well, his death leaves me confused and unsure of who I'm really supposed to suspect. I guess next on my list is Mastahcheese, then Persus, Silthuri, and then yourself. His flip as town also points at his inspection of me being correct. Not to mention what I said to TolyK about lynching me today...

Basically, the death of TolyK by the hands of the scum leaves me weakened and suspecting (but not knowing) that the death was targeted primarily to spite me.

As far as predicting things, I'm only guessing at their motives for their target. I can't see the future, and am not predicting what will happen except for maybe me dying later. Because TolyK had it in for me for whatever reason.

flabort: I notice a certain degree of pointedness in your statements. How do you see direct communication as a tool for scumhunting?
Also what drove you to mention the idea of 'framing'? You saw something back there.
Could I also ask how you're regarding Comrade Shamrock and Deus Amoth being tied? I've read you mentioning a three-way cop zone, and CS out of the idea of his...relations with DA. What exactly poked you on that idea?

Right. Almost forgot you were having trouble keeping up with recent events.
Uh...
Communicating directly and clearly is a tool for scumhunting in that the messages contained cannot be misinterpreted as being more or less scummy than intended. Indirect communication can lead to misinterpretations, muddying the waters and causing people to hunt the wrong targets. Direct communication is clear so that you can see through it, and see beyond it; you see it's message, and you understand it, and you then move on to the next person's communication (Direct or indirect), knowing that you understood the clear and direct communication.
I see framing as a possibility, because SOMETHING is wrong, in the flavor of Caz's role and Deus's result, and in my role and TolyK's result. One or both of us could have been framed, and with both of them flipping town I think it's a very real possibility now.

As far as both CS and DA being cops, "I just want to be more sure"..."if it makes sense as mine does." "I'm having a bit of trouble believing...they both managed to find scum their first night." "'Mein Kampf'?... Do either of you have something...in your flavor?  ...Hope it helps."
Shamrock seems to know everything there is to know about cops in this specific game.

Dues I'm starting to wonder if you might not be a paranoid cop. Your name and rank might help investigation of your status. What evidence did you find when investigating Tiruin (AKA Flavor?)?

TheDarkStar One of the cops is dead. Unless you're admitting to being a cop or agreeing with my theory that Shamrock is also a cop, that leaves us a cop short for having them target each other. As well, your sure you only saw the one action? The one action that had already been revealed in thread as taking place? You didn't see anything else, such as something somebody DIDN'T claim?
Mastahcheese at least had the courtesy of giving us new information (TolyK targeted me, but waited until Cheese mentioned it to claim) instead of just confirming something that someone already said. Your watch could easily be fake-claimed.

4mask That wasn't Tiruin who you quoted. How could you confuse TDS with Tiruin?

Mastahcheese, Comrade Shamrock Explain what you were each doing last night. Cheese, why do you suspect Shamrock, is it just vote analysis? Shamrock, who did you target each night, and why? Both of you, who do you each most suspect of being a framer, if there is one, and why?
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4maskwolf

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Flabort: Tiruin had mentioned earlier that I hadn't updated the OP, I just didn't feel like editing that into my post.

TheDarkStar

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TheDarkStar One of the cops is dead. Unless you're admitting to being a cop or agreeing with my theory that Shamrock is also a cop, that leaves us a cop short for having them target each other. As well, your sure you only saw the one action? The one action that had already been revealed in thread as taking place? You didn't see anything else, such as something somebody DIDN'T claim?
Mastahcheese at least had the courtesy of giving us new information (TolyK targeted me, but waited until Cheese mentioned it to claim) instead of just confirming something that someone already said. Your watch could easily be fake-claimed.

Right, TolyK died.

Anyway, I saw nothing else. I posted as soon as I was able to, but that was several hours after the day had started.
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mastahcheese

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Mastahcheese, Comrade Shamrock Explain what you were each doing last night. Cheese, why do you suspect Shamrock, is it just vote analysis? Shamrock, who did you target each night, and why? Both of you, who do you each most suspect of being a framer, if there is one, and why?
I didn't do jack last night, 'cause I'm a boring scrub. My suspicion of Shamrock is primarily voting analysis, but also the fact that the majority of his reasons for votes and stuff is based on other people's scumhunting, not his own. (Caz actually mentioned this observation as well in her reads)
My suspicion of a framer? The same as my suspicion of who's scum. It's something that I'm still working on discovering.
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Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

origamiscienceguy

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Did I see the words replace needed? If so, IN

This would be the first forum mafia game I played, but I have played with friends.
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"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

Tiruin

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PFP

Deus: One tiny mistake in your 'Caz is miller' theory. You inspected a book of Mein Kampf on her.
...How in the world would a Chinese soldier even get that kind of book?
Snippet short reply here for ya, but I really dislike that toxic snake-tone you're bringing there.

Other than the obvious note that Caz claimed miller--why are you only giving superficial data which does not explain a deeper level of thought regarding that kind of logic? [Esp. on the snarkasm with Caz....really. Wow >_>] This post? I've to say, totally misses one crucial point despite displaying an enaction towards Caz being miller.

Do you recall this one tidbit?

Because that one bit is a cornerstone in my attention towards your credibility. You hopped away from the theory which you mentioned earlier (or at least, did not mention it at all in your first posts...until poked), and yet in the link above to your post...misses it completely.

Query: How do you consider flavor, in general games?
Then, how do you consider flavor--in bastard games?

...It's like I ramped up your defensiveness value by...like how Ghandi becomes a nuclear superpower in the Civ games when they try to go "peaceful". ._. Hilarious bug-in-game reference aside, there seems to be a discrepancy in viewpoint here.

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A cop who's been confirmed as matching the other (confirmed) cop in his title and ability.
-Who outed himself for the town's benefit when he got a guilty result.
-Who found someone acting suspicious that claimed to be a miller.
-Said miller flipped town. (As for why I'm so certain she was a miller, check below)

And then this 'defensiveness' you're seeing. Because I asked you for the justification for a ridiculous question? That's not defensiveness, that's me trying to figure out why you're asking me a ridiculous question. Yes, I was sure that Caz was a miller, because she said she was a miller and got a guilty result when inspected by a cop in spite of being on the town's side
> Confirmed where? Exactly confirmed now?
> Outed, why? I do hope you didn't miss my tidbit regarding asking why you outed yourself so early, yes? (Well, it wasn't in interrogative form in my wall of first big post)
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But I am very curious as to why he outed himself as a cop, to reveal scum so early in a large game.
> And does the ends define the means? Meaning: Found someone acting suspicious?
You said you found a MK book, and that's all I gleaned from it -_-

> And how is such a question, regarded as ridiculous? Either it seems the facade of a curious and judicious 'cop' is breaking, or that you're already judging a question by how you saw it rather than inquire as to why it was being asked.

'Tis a note of jumpiness I do hear from thee.

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Do you mean the note in which I dismissed the planting evidence theory because it was only a theory with no supporting evidence, or the one in which I used it as one of the unlikely scenarios that would mean we didn't lose one of our cops in the night?
Dismissed why? Was the fact that you found a GERMAN BOOK...evidence enough? Explain how that doesn't lead onto supporting evidence?
While in normal games, I'd excuse the note of flavor--it is a general rule to not consider that kind of action in bastard games: (little) things must be analyzed, instead of discarded outright for the bigger details.

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I honestly have no idea what any of this means.
> DA is cop.
> DA seems like somekind of flavor investigating cop.
> DA states he found Mein Kampf on Caz (and possible other stuffs), which as stated by Caz was not even known by her up there.
> I ask you to prove that incriminating evidence by giving the flavor which incriminates me (unless I misunderstand how your investigate works). Because by now, you would've put it down, in my book of how you deliver proof.

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I picked you because you were lurking, hadn't given any useful information in spite of promising to several times and therefore seemed a less likely candidate for scum to plant evidence on if you weren't one of them yourself, assuming that's even something they're capable of doing.
>_>
<_<
You didn't even bother to talk to me beforehand?! Like, seriously? Lurking!?
Yeah I got touchy because it was RL issues instead, but...the lack of any poke or...what. While it is understandably reasonable in certain contexts...

Why didn't you just poke me earlier? Or do something like: 4mask: Prod Tiruin {and whomever else I feel is lurking for activity}
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As for the phrasing when I voted for you, yes, I did want to get a reaction out of you.
And how'd you base a reaction like that? I'd have to warn that whichever reaction it is--it is a biased one by what you expect rather than judicious analysis, given how you worded that question. :-\ I mean, look at it open-mindedly; the 'reaction test' in that context does no good in telling one scumside or townside if the answer is...comical, or not taken to heart: and even then, it would continue onto follow up questions.
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The fact that your defence seems to be lying through your teeth about what I said about the evidence planting theory and asking a strange and pointless question so that you can misrepresent me asking for your point as putting me on the defensive does little to convince me that my investigation of you got the wrong result.
...Defense whatnow? Lying..what?
...
You did recall Caz noting something regarding A SPECIFIC BOOK YOU FOUND, right? Like, this thing right here? That book which I have to restate was NOT talked about when Caz mentioned it in return response? You posted...right after her. And nothing came of it.

...Because this is seriously what I define as you being jumpy. I mean, before you accuse someone of 'lying through your teeth', you could do best to look up your own words too. Especially in an accusatory tone which you're leveling out of vagueness there.

Thinking a bit here...PFP
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Tiruin

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Flabort
[..]
TheDarkStar One of the cops is dead. Unless you're admitting to being a cop or agreeing with my theory that Shamrock is also a cop, that leaves us a cop short for having them target each other. As well, your sure you only saw the one action? The one action that had already been revealed in thread as taking place? You didn't see anything else, such as something somebody DIDN'T claim?
Mastahcheese at least had the courtesy of giving us new information (TolyK targeted me, but waited until Cheese mentioned it to claim) instead of just confirming something that someone already said. Your watch could easily be fake-claimed.[...]
Err, poking on the orange part...TDS is our watchman...and my parser sees the orange part as 'the one action already been revealed...in thread(?!)'....where?
Because that comes to me as if DA announced his mark beforehand--given that TDS only said DA targeted me.
...What thread is this of which you speak?
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Deus Asmoth

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PFP, over midnight, will post bigger tomorrow.

Deus, it seems you conveniently ignored Caz, the one you "inspected", being innocent. And then TolyK, who was an actual cop and revealed himself got NK'd. Funny, no?
Absolutely hilarious, especially considering that I revealed myself before TolyK and was considered the less likely of the two of us to be lying. And the way that TolyK confirmed that my role layout matched his own. And the fact that Caz was a miller, so it's not exactly surprising that she appeared as mafia when I inspected her.

flabort, yeah, I'm reasonably sure I'm paranoid. I found another MK on Tiruin, plus the same papers I found on Caz. I only voted for Tiruin at the start of the day to get her reaction, which is making me suspicious of her.

Everyone, since I've seen the reaction I wanted to see, something concerns me about the results I got investigating Tiruin. I found the same identification papers that Caz had in here possession (as in, literally the same papers). I have three possibilities that stem from this, being a) that the evidence planting theory is correct, b) paranoid cop syndrome or c) Tiruin stole Caz's stuff after she got lynched

On Paranoia: The scum have only had three nights to plant evidence (assuming evidence planting happens before investigation), making it pretty unlikely that I'd find their targets both times I investigated someone. On the other hand, my flavour notes that I took a closer look at the papers in order to find out that they were the same Caz had, and that seems out of character for a paranoid cop.

On Planting: Again, it's pretty unlikely that I'd find both victims of evidence planting while investigating them and the reappearance of MK would make me more inclined to believe paranoia is the culprit, but the papers being the same (and me noticing that they are) seems odd if I'm paranoid.

On Theft: Yeah, this is the least likely of the three. I only mention it be because of the same papers that Caz had being in Tiruin's possession.

Tiruin, all of your links go to the top of a page for me, so I'm going to have to wait till I get home to answer questions based on those links.

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A cop who's been confirmed as matching the other (confirmed) cop in his title and ability.
-Who outed himself for the town's benefit when he got a guilty result.
-Who found someone acting suspicious that claimed to be a miller.
-Said miller flipped town. (As for why I'm so certain she was a miller, check below)

And then this 'defensiveness' you're seeing. Because I asked you for the justification for a ridiculous question? That's not defensiveness, that's me trying to figure out why you're asking me a ridiculous question. Yes, I was sure that Caz was a miller, because she said she was a miller and got a guilty result when inspected by a cop in spite of being on the town's side
> Confirmed where? Exactly confirmed now?
Confirmed because he got night killed and flipped cop. Or if you mean me, confirmed because myself and TolyK checked that our roles matched over the course of day two, which you claimed twice that you were reading through.
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> Outed, why? I do hope you didn't miss my tidbit regarding asking why you outed yourself so early, yes? (Well, it wasn't in interrogative form in my wall of first big post)
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But I am very curious as to why he outed himself as a cop, to reveal scum so early in a large game.
Again, you're asking me questions I've already given the answers to. I revealed myself because I had a guilty result and didn't think it worth the risk of getting randomly night killed and losing the information, as well as the fact that it meant out guard would be more likely to keep watch if they knew there was a more likely night kill target around, meaning we'd hopefully know the identity of two of the scumteam by the start of day three for the price of one cop.
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> And does the ends define the means? Meaning: Found someone acting suspicious?
You said you found a MK book, and that's all I gleaned from it -_-
What are you trying to say here? I investigated someone I found suspicious, do you think I shouldn't have?

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> And how is such a question, regarded as ridiculous? Either it seems the facade of a curious and judicious 'cop' is breaking, or that you're already judging a question by how you saw it rather than inquire as to why it was being asked.

'Tis a note of jumpiness I do hear from thee.
Let's analyse this for a sec.
*I say that someone who claimed to be a miller and flips town was a miller.
*You ask why I'm so sure that said miller was a miller.
*I answer and ask the meaning behind the question.
*You claim that me asking this proves I'm being defensive.
*I dismiss strange question that you're refusing to provide justification for.
*You claim that me not asking for the meaning of the question proves I'm being defensive.

And I'm supposed to be the jumpy one here?

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Do you mean the note in which I dismissed the planting evidence theory because it was only a theory with no supporting evidence, or the one in which I used it as one of the unlikely scenarios that would mean we didn't lose one of our cops in the night?
Dismissed why? Was the fact that you found a GERMAN BOOK...evidence enough? Explain how that doesn't lead onto supporting evidence?
While in normal games, I'd excuse the note of flavor--it is a general rule to not consider that kind of action in bastard games: (little) things must be analyzed, instead of discarded outright for the bigger details.
Perhaps you missed the part where I revealed that 'Caz is mafia' was part of my result. That seemed like plenty of evidence to try get her lynched because of.

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I honestly have no idea what any of this means.
> DA is cop.
> DA seems like somekind of flavor investigating cop.
> DA states he found Mein Kampf on Caz (and possible other stuffs), which as stated by Caz was not even known by her up there.
> I ask you to prove that incriminating evidence by giving the flavor which incriminates me (unless I misunderstand how your investigate works). Because by now, you would've put it down, in my book of how you deliver proof.
You're trying to metagame me off a single instance of play? Good luck with that. Especially considering that I only revealed the flavour of my result on Caz after I gave the actual result and the formatting if that result, when TolyK said that the flavour might play a part in who he voted for. The flavour result I got off you was having another MK in your pack as well as the papers that were in Caz's possession the day before. And then at the end, we had a nice little 'Tiruin is mafia'. As I said above, I was pretty sure I was paranoid after the flavour result, but I wanted to see how you reacted to the guilty result.

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>_>
<_<
You didn't even bother to talk to me beforehand?! Like, seriously? Lurking!?
Yeah I got touchy because it was RL issues instead, but...the lack of any poke or...what. While it is understandably reasonable in certain contexts...

Why didn't you just poke me earlier? Or do something like: 4mask: Prod Tiruin {and whomever else I feel is lurking for activity}
I didn't poke you because, in case you've forgotten, you posted this:
Oh jellyfish :I
B12 doesn't load for a long time (10+ hours!?) and then stuff happens.
REREADING.

This is basically the gist of my post. I'll get to it >.<
A few hours before Day 2 ended, so I thought you didn't need a poke. The fact that you failed to deliver on your promise for actual content twice made me think you were seeing how long you could stall for, so yeah. Lurking.
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Quote
As for the phrasing when I voted for you, yes, I did want to get a reaction out of you.
And how'd you base a reaction like that? I'd have to warn that whichever reaction it is--it is a biased one by what you expect rather than judicious analysis, given how you worded that question. :-\ I mean, look at it open-mindedly; the 'reaction test' in that context does no good in telling one scumside or townside if the answer is...comical, or not taken to heart: and even then, it would continue onto follow up questions.
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The fact that your defence seems to be lying through your teeth about what I said about the evidence planting theory and asking a strange and pointless question so that you can misrepresent me asking for your point as putting me on the defensive does little to convince me that my investigation of you got the wrong result.
...Defense whatnow? Lying..what?
...
Lying. Untruth. Claiming things are otherwise than they actually are. Like when you claim I supported the planting evidence theory when this is the first post in which I've said anything in favour of it, now that there's actually some evidence that supports it.
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Comrade Shamrock

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Tiruin:
Query CS: What kind of idea would persuade you to use your only weapon--the vote?
Odd question. I'm not sure what you want by that. I suppose anyone who I thought was scum or anti-town. Do mean something else by "ideas"?

Query CS:Seeing that list (and your other posts), it seems to...skim, on the finer and "more convincing" details in general.
Could you please explain what you mean by this. Thanks in advance.

Also in regards to vote. Deus found you guilty and I trust him.

mastahcheese:
Comrade Shamrock: Explain why you voted Scripten Day 1
Spoiler: When I voted Scripten (click to show/hide)
Basically because he seemed a bit hypocritical for scumreading like when he counted scumtells for Tolyk but didn't like it when someone scumread him for lying. He also provided very little reason for those he voted and his list of reads didn't say why. Also when he pointed out the examples he said the majority who did it were town which by implication meant you could trust him because of it but he provided the sample which could be unreliable because of it.

The rest of you decided initially to kill him because you felt he was a trigger happy vig and continued with it because you didn't like the gambit. I thought he may have been scum so I did not cite that on why I was lynching.

and failed to care to vote for a lookout on the same day.
Umm... please check again.
Lookout Voting:
mastahcheese(6): TheDarkStar, Scripten, Silthuri, flabort, TolyK, Deus Asmoth
TheDarkStar(0):
Scripten(0):
Caz(2): Caz, Comrade Shamrock
Deathsword(0):
Persus13(1): Persus13
Vivalas(0):
Tiruin(0):
Silthuri(0):
flabort(0):
TolyK(0):
Comrade Shamrock(0):
Deus Asmoth(0):
Not Voting: mastahcheese, Deathsword, Vivalas, Tiruin

You are the only person that is still alive that voted for both of them, and you were rather late in the voting of both of them, siting other people's hunting as your excuse.
Late? For Scripten yes but for Caz no. Deus revealed 1.5 hours into D2. I voted for Caz around 1 hour later. How is that late? I was the second  vote. Deus was the first when he revealed his cop findings. I couldn't exactly top that, I felt Caz was town at the time. TDS was the third followed by the lot of you. So I'm not late in vote order either.

As to why I voted Caz.

No. 1: I trusted Deus and he said Caz was Scum. (Claimed rank specialist, not exactly something you would commonly think of)
No. 2: Caz's miller claim was horrible. She was very unsure as to why she was miller.

Well, we could have a cult as well, but I've got a cop result that Caz is mafia, so there's definitely a scum team.


I'm a miller. Chinese private that wanted to be deployed against the Japanese or something.
The "or something" is what got me here. She seemed uncertain as to the character's motivations and left it ambiguous which looked like a lie which could be taken anyway you wanted.

ebwop: what i mean is that even without the evidence thing i probably would have some up mafia due to my role being asian. (aka americans are racist)

I was under the impression that you were provided a reason as to what caused you to be miller. Flabort later confirmed this for me. So the "probably" is what got me here, it should have told her something a bit more concrete. For some reason Caz thought she was framed when she knew she was a miller. If she was miller she shouldn't have felt the need to push her being framed as well.

Flabort:
Mastahcheese, Comrade Shamrock Explain what you were each doing last night. Cheese, why do you suspect Shamrock, is it just vote analysis? Shamrock, who did you target each night, and why? Both of you, who do you each most suspect of being a framer, if there is one, and why?
[/quote]
Sorry Flabort I am most definitely not a cop. If I had targets at night and I was not a cop why would I reveal why and who? Especially as giving out the reasoning behind them would explain my role if I did. Why would I suspect someone other than those I think are scum are a framer and how would I determine which of them was the framer?

Comrade Shamrock

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EBWOP Messed up that last part sorry.
Flabort:
Mastahcheese, Comrade Shamrock Explain what you were each doing last night. Cheese, why do you suspect Shamrock, is it just vote analysis? Shamrock, who did you target each night, and why? Both of you, who do you each most suspect of being a framer, if there is one, and why?
Sorry Flabort I am most definitely not a cop. If I had targets at night and I was not a cop why would I reveal why and who? Especially as giving out the reasoning behind them would explain my role if I did. Why would I suspect someone other than those I think are scum are a framer and how would I determine which of them was the framer?
Sorry about that. Unvote

Deus Asmoth

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Great.
Who decided that it was a good idea to kill TolyK? Don't answer that, I know which team decided it.
Scum team, you just did that to spite me, didn't you? Because you picked up on the "if I can't prove you're scum, you can lynch me" thing I told TolyK. So you made him flip.

So now I resign to being killed, if there is anyone who trusted TolyK. But I will try to survive and aid the town anyways, and oust the scum.
I'd also like to say that I've looked at this a couple of times, and I like it less each time I see it. It looks more like scum pretending to be town and appealing to emotion than genuine town to me.
Logged
Look elsewhere, reader. There is nothing for you here.
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