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[mastahcheese]

@Deathsword: I won't answer your question. And here's why.
Theory 1) I'm town. I say I'll watch, scum know to kill me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 2) I'm town. I say I'll hide, scum know I'm a waste of time, and can use my desire to preserve myself to attack me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 3) I'm scum. I say I'll watch. Now I can accuse people of doing shit when then didn't. Sure I'll get caught later, but I'll take someone down with me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 4) I'm scum. I say I'll hide, and town can now attack me, and me and my scumbuddies can cause WIFOM. Scum gain from chaos.

Is there any situation in which town could gain from answering your question?

[Persus13]

@Deathsword: I won't answer your question. And here's why.
Theory 1) I'm town. I say I'll watch, scum know to kill me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 2) I'm town. I say I'll hide, scum know I'm a waste of time, and can use my desire to preserve myself to attack me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 3) I'm scum. I say I'll watch. Now I can accuse people of doing shit when then didn't. Sure I'll get caught later, but I'll take someone down with me. Scum gain from knowledge.
Theory 4) I'm scum. I say I'll hide, and town can now attack me, and me and my scumbuddies can cause WIFOM. Scum gain from chaos.

Is there any situation in which town could gain from answering your question?

Do you have any doubts as to your alignment? If not, why are you putting forward theories of yourself being scum?

Why are you assuming you'll be attacked over taking a hiding action? Do you yourself see hiding as the weaker of the lookout options?

[Persus13]

Persus: If you had a protect, would you rather use it on the lookout or someone else?

I hate these types of hypotheticals because I don't really know how this would turn out unless I know more, like what read do I have on the lookout? Has someone roleclaimed important stuff? Nevertheless, I would probably protect the lookout, because if they are town, then they'd be a scum target because scum won't want them to get information.


As I know I can trust myself, I think Persus13 should be the lookout.

[Scripten]

Do you have any doubts as to your alignment? If not, why are you putting forward theories of yourself being scum?

Why are you assuming you'll be attacked over taking a hiding action? Do you yourself see hiding as the weaker of the lookout options?

This post is absolutely scummy. Putting forth hypothetical situations for the benefit of supporting a logical argument is not scummy and trying to paint it as such very much is.

Unvote Vivalas
Vote Persus13

I do not like those questions. I do not like them, Sam I Am.

Ninja'd: Interesting. What kind of benefit do you get from being lookout, Persus13?

[TheDarkStar]

Persus: If you had a protect, would you rather use it on the lookout or someone else?

I hate these types of hypotheticals because I don't really know how this would turn out unless I know more, like what read do I have on the lookout? Has someone roleclaimed important stuff? Nevertheless, I would probably protect the lookout, because if they are town, then they'd be a scum target because scum won't want them to get information.


As I know I can trust myself, I think Persus13 should be the lookout.

Who would you vote to be lookout if it weren't you?

[Persus13]

Do you have any doubts as to your alignment? If not, why are you putting forward theories of yourself being scum?

Why are you assuming you'll be attacked over taking a hiding action? Do you yourself see hiding as the weaker of the lookout options?

This post is absolutely scummy. Putting forth hypothetical situations for the benefit of supporting a logical argument is not scummy and trying to paint it as such very much is.

1. Mastahcheese hasn't answered the questions I've asked. Jumping on a question before it is answered is both rude, and interferes with what he would say. Now that you've attacked me for this post, I have no chance to see Mastahcheese's natural response and get some information from that.
2. Where do I say I find hypothetical situations scummy? Did I vote Mastahcheese? I'm mainly looking for clarification from Mastahcheese on a point, and since I saw from that his post that Mastahcheese has different viewpoint on the lookout mechanic, I want to learn more on what his viewpoint actually is. I also wanted to see mastahcheese's reaction to my post, as that would give me more information, which you ruined by butting in before he had a chance to respond, therefore making my post useless.

Ninja'd: Interesting. What kind of benefit do you get from being lookout, Persus13?

The same as anyone else, extra abilities, and increased scrutiny.

Who would you vote to be lookout if it weren't you?

Flabort or TolyK are generally active, and I've played with them more than other players. Probably one of them.
If not them, then probably Tiruin, to see what she would do with the lookout ability, however, she has been having net trouble recently, so that means I'm less likely to pick her. This will definitely change as the game continues, though.

[Deus Asmoth]

Deathsword: I played a game with Scripten and Comrade Shamrock with TDS as the mod, though it hopefully isn't an indication of how I'll be playing this time round.

Perseus: Do you think that scum might want to get lookout duty in an attempt to find any town power roles in the game?

[Scripten]

My bad, I'll just go to my corner and stop scumhunting.

Or not.

1. Mastahcheese hasn't answered the questions I've asked. Jumping on a question before it is answered is both rude, and interferes with what he would say. Now that you've attacked me for this post, I have no chance to see Mastahcheese's natural response and get some information from that.

Were you expecting anything in response to those first two questions *other* than being told that they were based on a false premise? I apologize that play seems rude, but unless you were looking to discern Mastahcheese's alignment from him calling out your questions, I don't see my comment affecting a meaningful answer from him in the slightest.

I should have trimmed my quote, however, to remove the second set of questions, as those were not a part of my argument.

2. Where do I say I find hypothetical situations scummy? Did I vote Mastahcheese? I'm mainly looking for clarification from Mastahcheese on a point, and since I saw from that his post that Mastahcheese has different viewpoint on the lookout mechanic, I want to learn more on what his viewpoint actually is. I also wanted to see mastahcheese's reaction to my post, as that would give me more information, which you ruined by butting in before he had a chance to respond, therefore making my post useless.

Can you clarify the differences between your PoV on the lookout versus Mastahcheese's? Because I'm not getting the same vibe from your question as you are putting forth. In fact, I would postulate that you are feigning some amount of offense to deflect my scumhunting here.

If you didn't find hypothetical situations scummy, then why are you explicitly calling out Mastahcheese for presenting situations for both alignments, obviously for the sake of completion, as a basis for his argument? "Do you have any doubts as to your alignment?" has a distinctive accusatory air to it, don't you agree?

Ninja'd: Interesting. What kind of benefit do you get from being lookout, Persus13?

The same as anyone else, extra abilities, and increased scrutiny.

So I take it that you find the increased scrutiny from the town and potential for being NK'd an acceptable risk?

It seems to me that scum would be more happy about taking up the mantle of the lookout to avoid an investigative role revealing them (especially if said player is protected by a doctor) since they don't have the fear of being stabbed in the night to dissuade them.

[mastahcheese]

Persus
Even though Persus claims his questions are moot due to interference, I'll answer then anyway, and try to not let my answer be affected by what scripten said.

Do you have any doubts as to your alignment? If not, why are you putting forward theories of yourself being scum?

No, unlike some people, I prefer to check my role PM before my first post. I know what I am.
Perhaps "Theory" was a poor choice of word. I simply stated the possible outcomes, given any varibles I could think would come into play. The thing I was trying to get at was that answering that questioned served no purpose at to aid town.
When I ask or answer a question, I think of it in three lights.
1) Could town use this question/answer to their advantage?
2) Could scum use this question/answer to their advantage?
3) Could I personally use this to my advantage?
Answering his question, no matter in what manner I answered, would fail to meet the first, and succeed to meet the second, which in turn would fail to meet the third.

Why are you assuming you'll be attacked over taking a hiding action? Do you yourself see hiding as the weaker of the lookout options?

Because taking a hiding action fails to provide information, and serves only to protect yourself.
I won't answer the second part because it is nothing more than a mirror of the original question. Please see my first response.

[Persus13]

Persus: Do you think that scum might want to get lookout duty in an attempt to find any town power roles in the game?

Of course they would. But it is something that, if successful, would cause them to get increased scrutiny from the town, which is pretty much always a good thing.

My bad, I'll just go to my corner and stop scumhunting.

Or not.

I'm not asking you to stop scumhunting, I'm asking you to stop interfering with my scumhunting.

1. Mastahcheese hasn't answered the questions I've asked. Jumping on a question before it is answered is both rude, and interferes with what he would say. Now that you've attacked me for this post, I have no chance to see Mastahcheese's natural response and get some information from that.

Were you expecting anything in response to those first two questions *other* than being told that they were based on a false premise? I apologize that play seems rude, but unless you were looking to discern Mastahcheese's alignment from him calling out your questions, I don't see my comment affecting a meaningful answer from him in the slightest.

Of course your comment changes his answer. Do you expect him to read my post and then not allow your comment to affect his perception of it? Not going after someone for questions that haven't been answered tends to be a standard part of Mafia etiquette. As for what my expected response was, of course I expected a few different responses from Mastahcheese, either angry, or a simple explanation. If he had said something unexpected, or otherwise made some sort of slipup, then I would have something to pursue. Your comment makes it harder for him to do an unexpected outcome.

2. Where do I say I find hypothetical situations scummy? Did I vote Mastahcheese? I'm mainly looking for clarification from Mastahcheese on a point, and since I saw from that his post that Mastahcheese has different viewpoint on the lookout mechanic, I want to learn more on what his viewpoint actually is. I also wanted to see mastahcheese's reaction to my post, as that would give me more information, which you ruined by butting in before he had a chance to respond, therefore making my post useless.

Can you clarify the differences between your PoV on the lookout versus Mastahcheese's? Because I'm not getting the same vibe from your question as you are putting forth. In fact, I would postulate that you are feigning some amount of offense to deflect my scumhunting here.

The difference of viewpoint had more to do with the second set of questions, which were the ones I regarded as more important. And congratulations, you've come up with a possible scenario where I'm feigning offense. Or more likely, you pissed me off by interfering with what I was trying to do. It's like you just opened up the door of a darkroom, sure I'll still be able to take more photos, but you ruined the ones I was working hard on developing.

If you didn't find hypothetical situations scummy, then why are you explicitly calling out Mastahcheese for presenting situations for both alignments, obviously for the sake of completion, as a basis for his argument? "Do you have any doubts as to your alignment?" has a distinctive accusatory air to it, don't you agree?

No, I do not feel "Do you have any doubts as to your alignment?" is accusatory, because this is a bastard mod. It seems perfectly possible that someone might not know their wincon. It's a long shot, but still possible. If this wasn't true or mastahcheese didn't want people to know that, he could have just clarified.

Ninja'd: Interesting. What kind of benefit do you get from being lookout, Persus13?

The same as anyone else, extra abilities, and increased scrutiny.

So I take it that you find the increased scrutiny from the town and potential for being NK'd an acceptable risk?

The risk of a potential NK is an acceptable risk. Increased scrutiny from the town is something I listed as a benefit, so I don't see why you're trying to imply I would view it as an acceptable risk, unless you're trying to make me fall into a trap or make me look scummy.

It seems to me that scum would be more happy about taking up the mantle of the lookout to avoid an investigative role revealing them (especially if said player is protected by a doctor) since they don't have the fear of being stabbed in the night to dissuade them.

So basically you're saying you think I'm scum for voting myself as lookout. Who would you want to be lookout right now?

Persus
Even though Persus claims his questions are moot due to interference, I'll answer then anyway, and try to not let my answer be affected by what scripten said.

Do you have any doubts as to your alignment? If not, why are you putting forward theories of yourself being scum?

No, unlike some people, I prefer to check my role PM before my first post. I know what I am.
Perhaps "Theory" was a poor choice of word. I simply stated the possible outcomes, given any varibles I could think would come into play. The thing I was trying to get at was that answering that questioned served no purpose at to aid town.
When I ask or answer a question, I think of it in three lights.
1) Could town use this question/answer to their advantage?
2) Could scum use this question/answer to their advantage?
3) Could I personally use this to my advantage?
Answering his question, no matter in what manner I answered, would fail to meet the first, and succeed to meet the second, which in turn would fail to meet the third.

Why are you assuming you'll be attacked over taking a hiding action? Do you yourself see hiding as the weaker of the lookout options?

Because taking a hiding action fails to provide information, and serves only to protect yourself.
I won't answer the second part because it is nothing more than a mirror of the original question. Please see my first response.

Thanks for the responses. If a lookout stated that they hid the previous night, would you view that action as scummy? If you had a weak case against another person, would you switch to voting the lookout? What if the case against the other person was a strong case?

I agree that hiding is a weaker action than the lookout action, but the fact that it has a guaranteed effect and could be used to keep a townsperson alive means it might be more powerful than your hypothetical scenarios suggested.

4maskwolf: Hiding only prevents kill actions right? Other night actions still affect lookouts who hide, right? because it's a little bit ambiguous the way it's currently worded.

[Scripten]

Persus13

Persus: Do you think that scum might want to get lookout duty in an attempt to find any town power roles in the game?

Of course they would. But it is something that, if successful, would cause them to get increased scrutiny from the town, which is pretty much always a good thing.

Do you also believe that it follows that increased scrutiny on town players is a good thing?

Of course your comment changes his answer. Do you expect him to read my post and then not allow your comment to affect his perception of it? Not going after someone for questions that haven't been answered tends to be a standard part of Mafia etiquette. As for what my expected response was, of course I expected a few different responses from Mastahcheese, either angry, or a simple explanation. If he had said something unexpected, or otherwise made some sort of slipup, then I would have something to pursue. Your comment makes it harder for him to do an unexpected outcome.

You're acting as if I've answered the question for him. I specifically did not. I called out the question and pointed out the potential scum-sided motivation in it. Ergo scumhunting.

Had I said something along the lines of "Mastahcheese meant [so-and-so] by what he said", that would have been interfering. As it is, I don't believe my comments stepped over that line. That said, I don't think that this discussion is furthering the game state. I'll keep off the subject from here on out, with my apologies extended.

The difference of viewpoint had more to do with the second set of questions, which were the ones I regarded as more important.

Very well. Can you explain these differences?

No, I do not feel "Do you have any doubts as to your alignment?" is accusatory, because this is a bastard mod. It seems perfectly possible that someone might not know their wincon. It's a long shot, but still possible. If this wasn't true or mastahcheese didn't want people to know that, he could have just clarified.

That seems like quite the long shot, indeed. Your explanation here feels like backpedaling. Do you find that scum are more or less willing to concede points?

The risk of a potential NK is an acceptable risk. Increased scrutiny from the town is something I listed as a benefit, so I don't see why you're trying to imply I would view it as an acceptable risk, unless you're trying to make me fall into a trap or make me look scummy.

I'll come back to this once you've replied to the first question in this post.

So basically you're saying you think I'm scum for voting myself as lookout. Who would you want to be lookout right now?

It's a possibility. At the moment, I'm not 100% sure of anyone's alignment, but I'd certainly like to learn more about yours.

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf: Hiding only prevents kill actions right? Other night actions still affect lookouts who hide, right?

You are correct, yes.

[flabort]

Flabort: Do my RVS questions fit your standard this time? Random guess on what the bastard part of the mod is about?

I don't see anything about your initial questions to which I would protest, so yes they fit.
Oh, except for the part where you want me to try and outguess the mod, but that's not scummy at all, it's just that my answer couldn't be informative either way.
But since you want me to guess, I assume it has something to do with either the Day Five thing, or the Lookout mechanic; perhaps someone has an ability to strangle the lookout only IF they hide, or something bastardy like that. Or maybe there are post restrictions, or non-standard wincons. But this is just empty speculation, which is all that half the question can yield.

Tiruin What kind of voting strategy would you choose to apply to the lookout mechanic? Would you vote for the most town-y person, and if so how would you determine that person to be the most town-y? Would you vote randomly, or vote for a claimed power role?

Caz Let's say you're a cop, hypothetically. If there was someone who was generally considered to be scum at the end of the first day, but someone else was lynched, would you investigate them or another person?

TolyK What do you think of the early game Scripten-Persus interaction? Was Persus right to G-vote himself?

Mastahcheese I know you would choose to actually lookout if you were picked. Do you expect that the other players would choose to hide or use their regular actions in place of their lookout duties if they were chosen? Who is most likely to shirk their duties, and who of those are most likely to protect themselves?

[mastahcheese]

Persus

Thanks for the responses. If a lookout stated that they hid the previous night, would you view that action as scummy?

Depends on the circumstances.
If nobody found them particuraly suspicious, and they're town, then scum can easily kill them without leading a trail back to them. So hiding may be good.
A very strong town player could probably be expected to hide in order to save themselves, but imagine if they were actually scum playing really well, and claimed to watch something.
Really, the way it works means that each individual occasion has to be viewed on a basis of as it comes. There's too many nuances involved to make it a flat yes or no.
 

If you had a weak case against another person, would you switch to voting the lookout?

I don't like having weak cases in the first places. In any case, switching to the lookout is pointless unless circumstances would cause the lookout to be a stronger case.
It's, again, too nuanced.
 

What if the case against the other person was a strong case?

If I've got a strong case, I'm following it.
Dropping a strong case is never useful. To you or anyone.

I agree that hiding is a weaker action than the lookout action, but the fact that it has a guaranteed effect and could be used to keep a townsperson alive means it might be more powerful than your hypothetical scenarios suggested.

It does lend to that, and I just realized I sited a couple of those situations while answering an above question.
Again, the nuances involved with the lookout mechanic are ehhhhh.
Basing a case solely on the lookout being a lookout is dumb.

4Mask

Mastahcheese I know you would choose to actually lookout if you were picked.

Why do you feel the need to say this?
Does this influence how you would act?
How would you feel if I was lookout, and hid?

Do you expect that the other players would choose to hide or use their regular actions in place of their lookout duties if they were chosen?

Depends on what they believe is most advantageous.
I'd like to believe that we could find a use for it other than just what's blatantly placed in front of us.

Who is most likely to shirk their duties, and who of those are most likely to protect themselves?

The people most likely to not watch? People who would rather perform a night action they have, probably. Unless they fall under the below category.
People most likely to protect themselves? People who feel paranoid, and think they are at risk.

Let me ask this.
If you're town, and you think scum will try to kill you, would you feel more comfortable with:
1) Watching to see if you catch someone, and hoping you don't die.
2) Hiding to ensure you survive, at the cost of not gaining information, and the cost of not even wasting the scum a night if they don't target you.
3) Getting killed on watch and letting your roleflip speak for you.

[mastahcheese]

Whoop, that stuff was meant for flabort, not 4mask.