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[syvarris]

Spoiler: @Radio (click to show/hide)

Sorry for getting as worked up as I did.

I'd be happy if mission sods can just change from scenery to actually helpful.  I was just under the mistaken impression that PW didn't like that, which is why I thought personal sods might work.  Team sods would actually be better than personal sods in my opinion, assuming they work anywhere near as well as they did during the Heph defense.


As to the morality bit at the bottom of your post... yeah, my argument is somewhat flawed in that respect.  I disagree that sod slavery is immoral, but we've pretty firmly shown that I can't convince everyone of that.  That directly leads to the argument of "If you dislike this immoral thing, why do you tolerate all the other immoral things?".

...It suddenly occurs to me that I shouldn't say "sod slavery", because they're not really slaves.  I just like the alliteration of the phrase.

Spoiler: @Nikitian (click to show/hide)

I'd be fine with there being restrictions on how sods are treated.  To be honest, I think it's somewhat silly and OOC for ARM, but player enjoyment is always more important than staying in character.

I find it interesting that you think of ARM as the good guys at all, because to me, ARM seems like a violent monstrous font of near-pure evil that is barely controlled by Steve in the best case scenario.  Worst case, Steve's evil too.

I suppose our difference in opinions probably stems from our opposed outlooks; I'm excessively pessimistic, whereas you seem to be optimist prime.  Lucky you.

@Assaultsuit knuckles
I'm not sure if being the designer gets me any added weight, but I'd prefer we use forceblades rather than pimpknuckles.  Pimp knuckes are comparatively weak in combat, and that's going to be the primary use here.  As long as the forcefield strength is carefully chosen, the explosion shouldn't be a large issue; If it only blows off the forearm, it isn't worsening the damage to any significant extent.  We might also be able to make the forcefield omnidirectional, which would make an explosion very unlikely.

[Nunzillor]

Err, what about just a normal monoatomic blade?  Forearm exploding doesn't sound great.

[NAV]

The main problems I have with forceblades are that they require +2 uncon and +1 dex which severely limits the builds that could use them, and that it would be incredibly easy to break with an assaultsuit's strength.



There is the option of leaving the kinamps on there, and trusting anyone who can afford an assaultsuit enough to use them.

[syvarris]

...They require +2 uncon?  Huh.  I was under the impression you could use dex/str with them.  I guess we need to ask PW if an exception can be made, or at least if people can use them and just risk scratching their suit.

Breaking them shouldn't be much of a risk, unless the explosive strength just gets to be a massive problem.  The strongest FFs are 5x the strength of battlesuit plate, so if a punch could break one of them, you wouldn't need a weapon in the first place.  Also, the AS's arm would shatter.

Granted, a pound of FF projector at that strength has a .8 kiloton explosion, if I remember correctly, but we could reduce it a good bit so that the explosion is survivable.  Or just make it omnidirectional so that it just doesn't explode in the first place.

[NAV]

If an exception can be made, and they won't break, then I'm all for using forceblades.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Breaking them shouldn't be much of a risk, unless the explosive strength just gets to be a massive problem.  The strongest FFs are 5x the strength of battlesuit plate, so if a punch could break one of them, you wouldn't need a weapon in the first place.  Also, the AS's arm would shatter.

I am now imagining a Battlesuit going all JoJo on an unlucky sod.

[Radio Controlled]

Or maybe just make 1 option standard but allow it to be swapped out with the other on demand.

[Nikitian]

Spoiler: @syvarris (click to show/hide)

Well, "but it's our barely contained violent monstrous font of near-pure evil", isn't it? And we've limited our ways quite a bit since the days of HMRC to put up that propaganda image of "good guys". And then some of the brass (say, General Miyamoto, Commissar Pancaek appointed by him, etc.) do give an impression that they have internalised that image of "ARM as good guys" and are now enforcing it not only for PR reasons, but as a general rule as well.

(Actually, I think that it wouldn't be that much of OOC stretch that they could enforce such "good treatment" of sods, if that was their intention. So far, though, RC (in his IC part) hasn't strongly committed to one or other side of the debate, I think.)

Anyway, yeah, having certain "high" moral beliefs often almost forces rose-tinted glasses on you - it's hard to reconcile the reality and your approval of it otherwise. 

@Forceblades
Well, kinamps also theoretically use Uncon, don't they? (As "hi-tech melee weapons.)

Anyway, that +2 requirement is mainly there because the usual users (infantry) are a bit too agile for their own good (i.e. are likely to cut themselves up without proper training). With assaultsuits, I suppose this is less of an issue; plus, since piloting one is (at least) half-automated anyway, a case could be made for, say, +2 Aux instead. Or no special stat requirement at all, if Piecewise felt charitable at the moment.

Err, what about just a normal monoatomic blade?  Forearm exploding doesn't sound great.

In addition to what syvarris said (forearm exploding is highly unlikely, and would anyway be tuned down if actually possible), the main advantage forceblades have agains monorazor ones is that the former do use the user's strength a bit while cutting; the latter do not (and thus, the "2x battlesuit strength!!" advantage of an assaultsuit is nullified) - the same as with various plasma melee weapons.

Or maybe just make 1 option standard but allow it to be swapped out with the other on demand.

To be honest, I like this approach most. They're both at 3 tokens nominally, and I think that assaultsuit-sized options are anyway bigger (more numerous in case of kin-amp "stamps") and more expensive for both variants, so the economical parity is more or less preserved still.

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler: @Radio (click to show/hide)

Sorry for getting as worked up as I did.

I'd be happy if mission sods can just change from scenery to actually helpful.  I was just under the mistaken impression that PW didn't like that, which is why I thought personal sods might work.  Team sods would actually be better than personal sods in my opinion, assuming they work anywhere near as well as they did during the Heph defense.


As to the morality bit at the bottom of your post... yeah, my argument is somewhat flawed in that respect.  I disagree that sod slavery is immoral, but we've pretty firmly shown that I can't convince everyone of that.  That directly leads to the argument of "If you dislike this immoral thing, why do you tolerate all the other immoral things?".

...It suddenly occurs to me that I shouldn't say "sod slavery", because they're not really slaves.  I just like the alliteration of the phrase.

Spoiler: @Nikitian (click to show/hide)

I'd be fine with there being restrictions on how sods are treated.  To be honest, I think it's somewhat silly and OOC for ARM, but player enjoyment is always more important than staying in character.

I find it interesting that you think of ARM as the good guys at all, because to me, ARM seems like a violent monstrous font of near-pure evil that is barely controlled by Steve in the best case scenario.  Worst case, Steve's evil too.

I suppose our difference in opinions probably stems from our opposed outlooks; I'm excessively pessimistic, whereas you seem to be optimist prime.  Lucky you.

No problem syv, I probably wasn't very clear in my communication either if it came to that. But yeah, it's clear our sods till now have mostly been there to give pw something to kill that's not a player when he wants to up the stakes.

As for morality, note that I didn't mean to speak out for or against sods being immoral, just that that particular argument seemed strange to me.

[Nikitian]

So how does this armory inclusion go?

Armory inclusion processing is currently on hold, since Maurice came from meta-somewhere and is aboard the Sword, engaged in life-threatening activity.

You guys can pile up the Armory inclusion stuff for now. We'll see to it being sorted out after the trial ends.

(Oh, and for the record, I am going to assume everything that doesn't come with a variation of "hmm, let's see what the Council has to say on the matter" as finished design, ready for armory inclusion. Because those guys probably need some slack, given the explosive volume of Tinker inventions coming in (and if we wait for them to process everything, we'll get stuck for ages). I mean, syv is Piecewise-appinted Tinkmaster, isn't he?..)

[Nikitian]

See? This is going sorted after the trial has ended! Just like I promised! 

Now, while I'm still in power (about ten to thirty seconds in-game time, but absolutely using it to do the biggest contribution to the survival of humanity possible), what items would you like to have approved for Armory inclusion?

Universal Chem Thrower Doomsday and Haebi Acid canisters are approved for Armory inclusion.
Sharksuit 1.5 design is approved for Armory inclusion. The old Sharksuit model is decreed obsolete and is to be removed from Armory.
MCP 1.1 Suit Chassis upgrade is approved for Armory inclusion. The old MCP Suit Chassis is decreed obsolete and is to be removed from Armory.((Full list of upgrades available still pending from the Council, but eve with the current alone it should be fine.))
Mk I and Mk II suits are decreed obsolete and are to be removed from Armory.
New Brisant grenades (special designs and converted existing ones) are approved for Armory inclusion. The Hand Cannon is decreed obsolete and is to be removed from Armory. Grenades of the old models are decreed obsolete and are to be removed from Armory.
Milno-plate brain-casing is approved for Armory inclusion.
Heavy Gauss Cannon is decreed obsolete and is to be removed from Armory. ((Because Kugelblitz took its place.))
Hand Laser is decreed obsolete and is to be removed from Armory. ((Because Red Hand and Blaspistol.))
Emergency Wireline design approved for Armory inclusion. ((Price for regular buyers is still waited for from the Council, but the Armory is also about "concept" equipment, such as the shuttle several posts above, and it's needed for MCP 1.1 upgrade.))

On matter of obsoletization: I went ahead and removed only those designs that clearly had modern (or, newer, at least) replacements. Should I continue sweeping the Armory with a broom according to how we discussed it in ARM Archives thread?

[Egan_BW]

I still recall PW saying that we didn't have to approve things for the armory anymore, at the same time as he put in the system for tinkerers to be paid for their designs being used.
Was a heph post, might dig it up.

ED: Number one here is what I was thinking of. not sure if it applies here or not:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Again I must descend into the grease monkey squalor that is Heph OOC.

The council, Radio in particular, god bless his tireless efforts and capacity to keep track of you all, has made a very good case to me about the danger of this current form of prototyping and the way it is flooding the market with high powered crap and low prices. A Dangerous precedent to be sure. So I'm calling for a number of changes here.

1. No more prototyping. This current system was never what prototypes were intended to be anyways. And I'm afraid it has been a bit abused as is. So now, instead of prototyping, you'll just submit your weapon to be added directly to the armory. Whether or not it ever gets bought depends on how well you sell it, I suppose. Talk to sy, he's pretty good at that.

2. People on Heph will no longer have infinite resources with which to buy things from the Sword. No exchanging prototypes or goods for things from the sword. You'll still have the entire planet's resources for making things and doing stuff and getting stuff for yourself on the planet, but no buying artifacts from the sword with promises of goodies later. If people want to buy things for you and send them, thats ok.

3. Anyone who designs a weapon and puts it in the armory, regardless of if they're from heph or not, will get 25% of all money spent by people buying that weapon or tool, and any ammo or other things directly associated with it. We'll even round up for you. With this money you CAN buy things from the ship and do stuff like that. I hope it motivates you to create things guaranteed to sell. Things everyone will want.

4. I'm giving more power and control to the council, and looking for one more member, to ease the burden on the existing council. I want to essentially give the council the veto or acceptance power for new weapons and tech on a balance perspective. In other words,  the stuff with Sy that I've been doing, the materials science and all, or any experiments or that sort of thing would be handled by me, but things like the number of shots a weapon would have, the price, the size, etc would be handled, for the most part, by the council. So me for science, them for applications of what that science discovers. And of course I would have ultimate accept or veto and probably be consulted on anything they can't figure out.


Now then, Questions?

[Nikitian]

You know, I think I might remember something like this - and in that case I argued the reasons why it should stay, as is, regardl-

I remember it now. He said that they didn't need to be approved for prototyping anymore, and that was assured. (That whole step of Tinkering has been abolished for quite some time.) It is the final "approval to enter the Armory" that still stayed, part for IC reasons, part to avoid Armory clutter (the same arguments I presented back then, and which were accepted back then, and thus this part still stayed). It was jokingly referred to as "red tape", I believe (should help with searching for, if you wish), but it helps with very real issues.

Regardless, Hephaestus quite likely will soon lose the current person responsible for Armory approval, and a new one might never come or have radically different views on the matter. So let's not rush changes, shall we?..

Edit: Ah, you've found it yourself. Yeah, as you pointed out, it's about prototyping (and "custom design" costs) - those are in the past. It's the general approval for "official use in the ARM military forces"/"production on Hephaestus" that still stayed.

[Radio Controlled]

Some council results:

Heavy exoskeleton: 8 tokens, synth-flesh strength equivalent.

Dragoncoat: 2 tokens. Sharksuit is superior to it in terms of protection and due to the self repair, so the lower cost seems justified.

Heavy Armored Exoskeleton: 12 tokens, loses some dexterity compared to a normal heavy exo. Mk III on the ground is also nimbler/more dexterious even sans rocket pods but of course has less raw strength and no protection), for comparison.

Gungnir Electrolaser Kit MK2: 3 tokens, but the damage potential is lower than that of the traditional Tesla Sabre, partially since electricity and its effects are not forced into containment within small area past the laser beam the way they would be through automanip use (think 'cutting' over-effect vs. 'electrocuting' side-effect).
(Modern Tesla Sabre might or might not be pending Council review, if we get around to it with all of the recent stuff.)

Emergency Wireline: 1 token per 200m. Because TANSTAAFL, but also to prevent people abusing it being literally free. And it might still be given as mission equipment anyway.

MCP 1.1 suit chassis: rope, magnet clamps, small simple thrusters are added for free. Magnets are medium-strength civilian-duty ones - enough not to lose hold in free fall, or assist with hold in presence of gravity, but are by no means strong enough to be converted for military uses. Thrusters have very limited fuel and low thrust (meant for zero-g use), and similarly cannot be converted for military applications. Basically, we are ok with giving this as a small free upgrade as long as people don't immediately then take it and scrounge Mk.III equivalents out of a few spare suits. We gave a hand, now please don't take the arm.

[Egan_BW]

What about mai Electoblaster m8.