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[Nikitian]

In regards to sods: So far I've been endorsing "creator's argument" - "We have created you, we shall tell you what to do" (sort of how we treat computer software and, in a lot of sci-fi (including ER), AIs - in the end I think even Steve was told what to strive for in the very beginning). It's lopsided and full of problems, but it's a stable argument that works (sort of).

In regards to BNW: You know, you guys made me want to read it really much. I can't say I'm a full utilitarian, but I'm very curious at how I would feel about it.

In regards to slavery: It has already been pointed out that slavery is very historical-context-intensive subject, and I would dare even say it's on a sliding scale of service to slavery (because, IIRC, even in the 'ancient times' (pre-classical era) there were several very distinct attitudes towards slavery and its culturally/legally-imposed limits, that varied geographically). It is interesting to also mention that there are certain modern day counterparts of slavery - compulsory military service, for example. By no means I am saying this in opposition to such service - rather, to point out that this issue isn't as clear-cut and even today there are notable examples where what is effectively 'slavery' is considered noble and laudable, by society if not by conscripts themselves. (Of course, there is the matter of length of the service term here (except in a major war, of course) - but for modern people who were, most commonly, from birth conditioned to value freedom this much is already a big deal.)

[Nunzillor]

@syvarris Hmm I suppose I just sort of feel negatively about certain actions.  For example, epsilons and deltas have their fetuses damaged at birth, and that seems wrong to me even though it doesn't really affect their happiness.  Perhaps coerce is a poor choice of word, as they don't really have much of a will to resist since they are brainwashed from birth.  Brainwashing just seems wrong, but I struggle to explain why in this scenario.

I don't think what you're saying sounds monstrous, just a different way of seeing things, and certainly one that is more logical.  Also, I wonder what would happen if we 3D-printed replacement brains.  Sod-Milno might not be Milno exactly (though, why wouldn't he?) but he would certainly be Milno-esque.  You could create an army of snarky honey badgers!

[AoshimaMichio]

@syvarris Hmm I suppose I just sort of feel negatively about certain actions.  For example, epsilons and deltas have their fetuses damaged at birth, and that seems wrong to me even though it doesn't really affect their happiness.  Perhaps coerce is a poor choice of word, as they don't really have much of a will to resist since they are brainwashed from birth.  Brainwashing just seems wrong, but I struggle to explain why in this scenario.

I don't think what you're saying sounds monstrous, just a different way of seeing things, and certainly one that is more logical.  Also, I wonder what would happen if we 3D-printed replacement brains.  Sod-Milno might not be Milno exactly (though, why wouldn't he?) but he would certainly be Milno-esque.  You could create an army of snarky honey badgers!

Bioforge can copyscan someone's brain for mass production, but it also destroys original in process.

[Nunzillor]

That's alright.  As long as you're OK with being a copy of your original self, and aren't an amp user, I suppose.  Anyway I will stop cluttering this thread.

[Maegil]

Comments and opinions, please:

Spoiler: St. Bernard gurney bot (click to show/hide)

Exploding a Gunner Bot, select the legs and actuators, the control unit, and one AV device from its sensors suite.

Break a scoop stretcher in four parts, and reconnect them with electric telescopic fittings long enough to stretch around an armored human.
Fit spring self-winding safety belts for patient immobilization.
Fix the legs around the gurney, and the AV and control unit at its head.

Optional gear: a light-bending spray painted protective shell of Milno-plate around the head and sharkplate elsewhere.
Optional gear: articulated arm, one canister of each: medifoam, painkillers, coagulant boosters and anti-shock meds to remotely work on the patient.

And yes, although not designed for it, I imagine that there are other uses:
- by itself, it obviously can be used to cart stuff,
- the first optional configuration can also be used for stealth insertions or as a light APC,
- the second one, I don't know, maybe it could allow silent abductions or something, especially if used together with the first option.

Neat Idea, but I'm unsure how useful it would be.  Gunnerbots are expensive, and this seems like a niche thing for BLOPS only.  In normal missions, there's almost always someone around who can carry a corpse/jim'd teammate.  Plus, nobody is going to pay any significant amount of tokens, just to make transport less excrutiating.

Stealth insertion is a really good idea, though.  I could see that being mission equipment for blops.

((If you respond, please respond in Heph OOC.))

The Gunner bot is 8 tokens, but I'm only using a few parts of it, it didn't need a gun or the complete sensor suite; that should cut half the price or more, depending on the gun's price.
I'm quite certain the stealth shell will be much more expensive than the gurney itself.

As for its usefulness:
- Would I personally buy one? I guess that if I had money enough to pack what amounts to a small field hospital, I would want to have one of these to both carry the stuff until set up the aid station and fetch the patients to said field hospital, otherwise I'd probably pass.
- As normal mission equipment, I think it'd be a nice thing to have if the price is low enough. 
- That need would rise in a combat-heavy mission: the wounded could be extracted and taken to the medics without risking others (said medics included) or taking another member from the ongoing combat. The stealth version would become much more desirable, as it would both reduce the risk of having it destroyed and allow to maneuver around the enemy.
- The stealth model's advantages to BLOPS operations are visible, and it might be useful to have a few of these in the arsenal: even if they weren't used all that much in the planned ops themselves, they're still gurneys, and shit happens.

[syvarris]

A (very) rough estimate for the price return of removing the gun and some sensors would be four, maybe five tokens.  The parts're probably more expensive than that, but packages are cheaper than their parts--the gunnerbot is a package.  Also, you're adding stuff, which is probably a token, so I doubt you can get it cheaper than four tokens.  It's still a large wetware robot, after all.

On normal missions, I think the only valuable use would be for retrival of corpses from dangerous situations.  The problem is, it's not going to be particularly useful most of the time; Here's a list of requirements:
--The danger must not be passing (a firefight will be won), or the corpse must have a risk of being targeted prematurely.
--No armored allies can be present to retrieve the corpse.  I don't think this is gonna impact a fight much by removing a combatant.
--The gurney bot must succeed in the retrieval, not being shot or damaged before safely returning the person.

And here's a pair of problems:
--I don't think Gunner bots are armored, and gurney bots can be targeted early, before they're even used.  It has to survive the mission leading up to its use.
--It is wetware, and therefore vulnerable to mindfuck.  This could mean it's damaged before being useful, like the above, or it could attack a teammate.

It would be valuable for cases like China-9, where people were trapped near ground zero, and players had to rush back in to rescue them; I think Nik fell to this fate?  However, most of the time, we don't have sitations like that.  Four tokens (or even three) is a bit of an investment for something which has a decent chance of not being useful on a mission.

That said, sure, it's a decent thing to have available, for BLOPS and such.  I just don't think it should be in the armory, because someone will waste money on it.  We already have too much armory bloat.

[Unholy_Pariah]

Since when has it ever been stated that gunner bots are wetware?

[Nunzillor]

I heard they have part dog brains...

[Unholy_Pariah]

they are stated to be as smart as a clever dog...

no brains were ever mentioned...

[NAV]

Strange there is no manual available for gunner bots. I wonder if the AM knows something...

"Hey AM, could you go into more detail the features of the gunner bot? It doesn't say much in the description"

Travis heads over to the AM and asks.

"It's got parts of a dog brain in there somewhere, it's got some good maneuvering algorithms and it shoots things." She shrugs.

[Unholy_Pariah]

and I stand corrected...

carry on.

[renegadelobster]

Could use preprogrammed sharkmist for the majority of it to reduce size. When it's "off" it is the size of a backpack or so, the chemicals, containers, sharps, AI suite are in there. When you want to use it, you take it off, put it on the ground and press "on". It uses whatever it's touching to construct the majority of the gurney and you go from there. You turn it back to "off" and it collapses/refills the chemicals/sheds sharkmist/whatever back into something backpack sized

[NAV]

That said, sure, it's a decent thing to have available, for BLOPS and such.  I just don't think it should be in the armory, because someone will waste money on it.  We already have too much armory bloat.

If we don't put it in the armory, then how will black ops people who need this item find out about it?

[syvarris]

@Renegade
That's a good idea, but I doubt it would work.  Why can't we make a robot arm, which can be chopped in half and then both halves regenerate into full arms?  There's no IC reason, to my knowledge, but we still need to buy big expensive cats.

@NAV
Obsessive people like me who have memorized random esoteric facts about ER, and love to butt into other people's business with it?

Alternatively, we could just have a "BLOPS equipment" page.  That would be a good idea regardless, because there's a decent chunk of armory equipment which is primarily tailored to blops.

[Parisbre56]

we still need to buy big expensive cats

Wait, the armory sells big cats? 'Cause I'd love to have a lion or a panther. Or maybe a big armoured cyborg tiger. Yeah, something usable as a battlesuit mount. With wall climbing ability, agility and long jumping... Maybe train it to follow orders and shoot... Give it a nice universal chemical thrower to use as flamethrower, maybe put it in the mouth... Along with an ESDF... Yes, give it the Stevebot treatment and one of those organic computer brains from the planetoid and let it expand into a nice barely controllable and unpredictable killer robot...
...
Sorry, what were we talking about again?