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[spazyak]

Perhaps we could use meta materials to change how armor looks, make a Mk3 suit look like a big MK1.

[syvarris]

@Ozark

Your character probably wouldn't already know how to contact the Heph personnel, but he's fully capable of it.  You can send textsto us as easily as anyone else.  He might figure it out just by looking through the contacts on the wristpad, and seeing "Hephaestus Administration" on there.

He'd get a hearing as long as he's talking about someting tinker-related.  Otherwise, he'd just seem annoying.  Asking about where the bathrooms are would probably just get him insulted, and maybe a map if he's lucky.


I'm curious about what you would want in a suit designed for medics or engineers.  All the equipment for both archetypes is included in emergency and advanced kits.  How would integrating a suit really help?

'Grav' sleds are easy to make, if not all that practical.  We have two types of frictionless material which could replicate that sort of effect, although actually countering gravity would be far too expensive.  The problem is, most inventory is abstracted, and if you can lift something, you can typically carry it along with a ton of other stuff with no trouble; It isn't uncommon for people to be toting around seven guns and three backpacks worth of miscellaneous items.  Also, a grav sled wouldn't be all that helpful in highly vertical areas, like a multi-story building.

It's good to have you talking about new ideas, though!  Every new person has a different viewpoint on what items would be useful, and you can never have too many ideas.

[Ozarck]

I saw the emergency and advanced emergency packs.
1)In some of the discussion in this thread, part of the idea of upgraded equipment was to get more bang for the token. Integrating the medical kits might do that, and perhaps extend their useability, say from five uses, to ten.

2)Plus, I was thinking that, since medics aren't meant to be tanks, perhaps armor focus could be on stealth, heighened mobility,  crew status monitoring, that kind of thing.

3)Maybe, for the experienced medic, some kind of remote operable stims and medications and whatnot (probably not necessary considering Steve's role and all)

4)Um, I didn't know how much people could carry, so I guess with a higher tier medsuit, it would just be a matter of consolidating a lot of the gear. Being able to carry a couple spare robolimbs attached to the outside of an exoskeleton seems handy, if that's not already a thing.

It kinda sounds like you feel that medical tech is pretty much at endpoint as is though, at least in mission. How useful is a medtech anyway? I have heard mixed opinions - some feel like there is never one around when you need one, some feel that it's a "useless" skill.

[Nikitian]

-snip- How useful is a medtech anyway? I have heard mixed opinions - some feel like there is never one around when you need one, some feel that it's a "useless" skill.

That's exactly right: there is never a medic around when you need them most, and moreover, doctoring a completely useless skill! I can tell, you bet.



I won't go deep into comments for now, but yes, you've nailed one of the main problems meditech advancement currently struggles with. To be more precise, because of the level of abstraction involved with medkits, and number of roboticised people who simply scoff (or, in case of robo-chauvinists, sneer) at the idea of medical attention, medical tech is currently at... well, I would not call that a full endpoint yet, but certainly some sort of a end-semicolon.
And finding a solution to that problem and a way to improve it further has long been an interesting task (and, incidentally, the personal goal of my current character), which I can only invite you to join accomplishing. 

[syvarris]

((Remember that my opinions are just that--opinions.  Sometimes I assume what others would think, and if I'm wrong about them than my entire point is invalid))

1) That's a good point, but I'm not really sure whether it's practical.  Say we integrate the advanced kit with an MCP.II (which costs 3 tokens, IIRC).  A likely price would be seven tokens, as six would be too minor of a cost increase over the advanced kit to be meaningful.  This suit might be judged to be too redundant with existing tech, or you might get called out by the council because you're 'exploiting a game mechanic' (although I'm not sure if this would be qualified as such).

2) This is more likely to work.  A suit specilized in a different direction, possibly just for generic 'non-combat' use.  If there's enough different features which make it a unique thing, it would be quite practical.  Although, mobility is already done by the MK.III, and crew-monitoring is already possible with existing suits; you just need to get or create some free software.

3)I'm not quite sure what you mean by this?  Just medications in a suit that are remotely activated?  I'm pretty sure you can already do that with an AUX roll if your patient is wearing an MK/MCP.II.  Some sort of dedicated item which doesn't need the AUX roll might be good, though.

4)This is probably already possible, but there's no way to carry robolimbs around, to my knowledge.  I believe one person was working on special compact robolimbs meant to be carried along and be attached to people on-mission, but I believe the attachment process required more infrastructure than a person can carry (unless you're fixing a robot).


Medtech is... in a weird spot.  Its usefulness is inversely correlated to how bad your situation is.  Obviously, if nobody is hurt, then it's worthless, and you're going to sit on mission being useless.  But if everybody is getting wounded and maimed, then you'll be MVP.

Similarly, it's more useful for newbies than for veterans.  High-level people tend to have either great armor, integrated medical systems, and/or are robots and can't even benefit anyway.  Low level people rarely have any of that.  So a medic will get progressively less useful as they get to higher levels, unless you tend to intentionally stay around newbies.

In general, I'd value any combat skill over a medical skill, because they're almost always useful regardless of the situation.

[Radio Controlled]

Clearly, we should outsource medical needs to npc's and robots.

[Ozarck]

Ah, okay. It seems unrealistic to expect there to be cons to robofication for the sake of medical practice, but being able to slap a functioning lung into someone mid-mission might come in handy anyway. So perhaps higher tier medsuits could have higher functionality in terms of immediate organ replacement. Not that those organs wold necessarily be good long term replacements, but stop-gap resources for making an otherwise full body amputee into a functioning guntoter for a time?

[Kriellya]

Not to nitpick you Nik, but ARESTEVE

[Nikitian]

Nah, it's Steve; ARESTEVE is ARESTEVE. As in, Steve Saint, Admin of Hephaestus Domestic Affairs. Maurice is comfortable calling him Steve around here where Steve is mostly absent (well, present, but as ARESTEVE instead).

Now I just hope that syv will get that right, and not make this little mistake too...

[Toaster]

Clearly, we should outsource medical needs to npc's and robots.

This really isn't a half terrible idea.  Most injuries can be generally abstracted and categorized to a specific set of treatments, and with the state of technological advancement, a robot medical suite should be fairly straightforward.  Instead of a gunner bot, a doctor bot!  Could have onboard UV station for sterilization of equipment between uses as well, self-sharpening tools, medifoam canisters, etc etc etc.

[Ozarck]

((Remember that my opinions are just that--opinions.  Sometimes I assume what others would think, and if I'm wrong about them than my entire point is invalid))

1) That's a good point, but I'm not really sure whether it's practical.  Say we integrate the advanced kit with an MCP.II (which costs 3 tokens, IIRC).  A likely price would be seven tokens, as six would be too minor of a cost increase over the advanced kit to be meaningful.  This suit might be judged to be too redundant with existing tech, or you might get called out by the council because you're 'exploiting a game mechanic' (although I'm not sure if this would be qualified as such).

2) This is more likely to work.  A suit specilized in a different direction, possibly just for generic 'non-combat' use.  If there's enough different features which make it a unique thing, it would be quite practical.  Although, mobility is already done by the MK.III, and crew-monitoring is already possible with existing suits; you just need to get or create some free software.

3)I'm not quite sure what you mean by this?  Just medications in a suit that are remotely activated?  I'm pretty sure you can already do that with an AUX roll if your patient is wearing an MK/MCP.II.  Some sort of dedicated item which doesn't need the AUX roll might be good, though.

4)This is probably already possible, but there's no way to carry robolimbs around, to my knowledge.  I believe one person was working on special compact robolimbs meant to be carried along and be attached to people on-mission, but I believe the attachment process required more infrastructure than a person can carry (unless you're fixing a robot).


Medtech is... in a weird spot.  Its usefulness is inversely correlated to how bad your situation is.  Obviously, if nobody is hurt, then it's worthless, and you're going to sit on mission being useless.  But if everybody is getting wounded and maimed, then you'll be MVP.

Similarly, it's more useful for newbies than for veterans.  High-level people tend to have either great armor, integrated medical systems, and/or are robots and can't even benefit anyway.  Low level people rarely have any of that.  So a medic will get progressively less useful as they get to higher levels, unless you tend to intentionally stay around newbies.

In general, I'd value any combat skill over a medical skill, because they're almost always useful regardless of the situation.

(nothing wrong with expressing some educated opinions. I know a lot less about how this stuf works in this game than everyone, so any suggestions are appreciated)
1) redundant and exploitative sounds like two opposite ends of a spectrum. Just because a new item uses existing tech and is a small sideways hop doesn't make it pointless, and just because an upgrade uses the same kind of pricing format that is standard for other upgrades doesn't make it an exploit - rather think of it as a natural progression.
2)
3) for this, I mean that the medic has some system in his suit that allows him to operate the health features of another suit, without a roll? sure, or at least with some bonuses to the roll?
4) Maybe have a powered exoskeleton and attach the robolimbs to the exterior, so you look like you're in an awkward, clingy relationship. And yes, they are meant as replacement limbs for broken robots. It sounds silly in my head, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what stirred.

It does seem like having a dedicated medic is a potential waste of skills and resources. I don't think this game was built with the medic profession in mind, but I saw enough potential use for one on they gyromatria mission and with other missions I read that the idea appealed.

[Parisbre56]

Make a robot (or a centiped-like thing) that is a cockpit embedded in a ball of arms and legs it uses to move, interact with the world and perform surgery. The limbs (or small sacks in the body) have compartments with tools, equipment, consumable medical stuff and artificial organs in them. Or they can simply be held by the arms, but that would be harder to do, plus Kri's compact limbs means we can have normal sized limbs with hollow compartments in them. So whenever someone is injured, the thing rips out some of its limbs and uses them to heal the one that was injured. Maybe add some special limbs that can be used to cling to walls or defibrillate or stuff like that. Whenever a limb is removed the loss in strength is compensated by the loss in weight. It's like a battlesuit that trades armour and weapons for healing equipment, so the battlesuit discount should apply. With a few secondary sensors or mobility features (or the ability to put scalpels/defibrillators on each arm) it will be a good alternative to a battlesuit for fleshtechs.

[syvarris]

Nah, it's Steve; ARESTEVE is ARESTEVE. As in, Steve Saint, Admin of Hephaestus Domestic Affairs. Maurice is comfortable calling him Steve around here where Steve is mostly absent (well, present, but as ARESTEVE instead).

Now I just hope that syv will get that right, and not make this little mistake too...

Yup, I made the mistake too.  Even Saint might make the mistake IC, since everyone has called him Saint for several years now.  Guess I'll deal with that in my next Heph post.

1) redundant and exploitative sounds like two opposite ends of a spectrum. Just because a new item uses existing tech and is a small sideways hop doesn't make it pointless, and just because an upgrade uses the same kind of pricing format that is standard for other upgrades doesn't make it an exploit - rather think of it as a natural progression.
2)
3) for this, I mean that the medic has some system in his suit that allows him to operate the health features of another suit, without a roll? sure, or at least with some bonuses to the roll?
4) Maybe have a powered exoskeleton and attach the robolimbs to the exterior, so you look like you're in an awkward, clingy relationship. And yes, they are meant as replacement limbs for broken robots. It sounds silly in my head, but I thought I'd throw it out there to see what stirred.

It does seem like having a dedicated medic is a potential waste of skills and resources. I don't think this game was built with the medic profession in mind, but I saw enough potential use for one on they gyromatria mission and with other missions I read that the idea appealed.

1) It's only somewhat redundant, but my point is that it is only very barely different from just buying a MCP.II and an advanced kit.  It's only ever useful for a medic who wants both those items, and even in that instance it's only a token less.  When I called it potentially exploitative, I meant that it could be seen as a person effectively deciding what they want to buy, and then 'designing' a item which is bundle package of what they want, and get a discount on it. 

Also, this is probably the most YMMV thing I've said.  I'm pretty sure Nik would be fine with it, so the only people who might dissent are PW and the council--and I'm pretty bad at predicting their opinions.

3)Ah.  Well, currently all suits which involve medical systems are fully automated and pretty much 100% effective and reliable.  At best, a medic could remotely activate some of the systems at an unorthodox time to take advantage of side effects--Like giving a shot of painkillers to a tired amper, so that they can regenerate mind points faster, or knocking a MC'd ally out.  Even here, you only need software, which is generally free if you can get someone with AUX to write it.  There's a number of people on Heph with high AUX, so that shouldn't be an issue.

4)Sorry, I miss-typed in my last post; I meant to write "there's no way to purchase robolimbs", rather than "there's no way to carry robolimbs.  Carrying them shouldn't be too difficult, and your idea of attaching them to an exoskeleton would probably work quite well.  If you can buy them (and cheap compact ones should be available soon, as I mentioned before), then it would be quite practical for repairing robotic allies.

@Paris

I like this idea, primarily because of how horrifying it is.  A hekatonkheires which chases down wounded allies, and then tears its own limbs off and attaches them to the patient with seven other limbs working in concert.  It would get even better if it can rip limbs off of (robotic) corpses and add them to itself, to later reattach to living robots.

[Parisbre56]

Actually, there is a way to purchase limbs: http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Armory#Surgical_Tools

And now that I have some free time I'll see about catching PW on IRC some day and discussing that suit, see if he wants me to work out a control system or if we can abstract it or say it requires an MMI and some Dex. Maybe I can get him to allow the limbs to connect to each other to form some sort of tentacle or whip.

With some armour, it might even be useful for our military as a sort of combat medic/scavenger. Using parts of damaged sods to repair other sods and gathering intact braincases to bring back to be installed in new bodies. Edit: Although, now that I think about it, a dedicated vehicle might be better for that. Or maybe just sods with the right tools and some spare parts.

[Ozarck]

Okay, i can kinda see where you're coming from with the "exploitative" thing. Here is more my thought process:
hmm, three weapon skills, general knowledge, auxilliary systems, medical, all weighted the same in character creation. Must be relatively equal in importance, as demonstrated by people saying there is no dump stat and the like. Looking up equipment: power armor, lots of weapons, various stat pills and medical supplies, then over to the Heph ooc thread - they are integrating weapons into suits. Huh, well if tank class and gunner class are getting specialized suits, why not medics and mechanics? Hey, how does the medic even work in this game anyway? (this is the point at which I began to discover the awkward situation with medical skill. Oh, time to edit my character into a pure exotic?)

I don't thing having just the Mk II and advanced kit is what I was going for, it's just a feature of the overall package. And the overall package is supposed to be "a suit that would be effective at making a medic's job easier and more likely to be successful." I struggle with the concept of a medic suit being an exploit anyway, since the purpose is to fix other player characters and thereby aid the team. And it isn't like an advanced medic kit is a glory item or anything. No "power, unlimited power" lightning bolts here. rather, it's the tools necessary to do the job for which the character is qualified.

4) how difficult would it be to implement a robolimb purchasing scheme anyway? I mean, aren't robobodies given away for free when a person loses his original meatsack anyway?