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[Radio Controlled]

Well, there is this:

8 | Electrified Surface System

Stat Restriction: None
Incompatible with: Other armor packages
Description: Covers the body in a metallic mesh which can then be electrified to deal damage to anything touching the body. This power comes from internal sources, so it will never need to be “reloaded” but over use can cause the body to shut down for a period of time while it recharges.

I can imagine a version for an AS cost about the same. That'd bring the total up to 6 + 5 + 8 = 19. A more balanced offer, now you 'only' get 5 tokens more power worth (still get about 25% of the tokens worth you give in extra back out).

[Hapah]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Is it being suggested that if I remove X token-value of stuff from an item, I should get X+Y token-value in return? I'm just skimming things.

[syvarris]

I'd be in favor of also trading the esdf for the 2PEWs.  Since you already lose the kinamps and half the arm strength, that basically completely disables your melee functionality.  You get two shots per minute, and any attackers are safe for the rest of that time period.  It also somewhat mirrors the older variants--IIRC, Toaster's long range battlesuit trades claymores and the esdf, and the AS already had most of the claymores removed, so kinamps seem like a fair trade instead

Something that occurs to me: a lot of battlesuit variants were balanced for 20 tokens.  The heavy weapon versions in particular--long range has a gun bigger than a LESHO, which was somewhag balanced when it was more expensive than a LESHO.  Now?  The long-range variant has a better gun and is cheaper than a LESHO, by three tokens, with the only compensation being that it requires +2 AUX to be an option.  I'm not sure that this is a good system, but it might be a good idea to view the 2PEW similarly, so that we don't favor PW tech.  Unless we want to favor PW tech.

@Hapah

I... don't think so?  Two PEWs costs X, and people are arguing whether adding them is balanced by removing Y tokens of equipment to compensate.  X>Y, by a slight margin, although Y doesn't really have a definite value.  Y is more of a perceived value which different people see differently.

[Radio Controlled]

Aww c'mon, slight margin? Originally we were talking 11 vs 24 in terms of raw tokens. It's better if the esdf is removed, certainly, but still, more than 100% extra isn't slight I'd say. And yes, Y might not have a definite value, but you can argue the subjective value of things forever. Token cost is about the only measure we even have to be objective.

And yeah, pw tech is favored (in terms of price, at the very least), no real getting around that.

[Devastator]

There's just one other thing that comes to mind, though.  Sean Mirrsen and I discussed it at a bit of length last night.  I'm just not certain that the logic from the beginning was sound.  Here's how I currently think the thought process for the dual PEW assaultsuit went.

I want to give an assaultsuit a good weapon, something that helps people, and it should cost about five tokens, making the total price same as the old battlesuit.

PEWs are really popular these days, and I think they leave a lot ot be desired.  They're heavy, hard to aim, take a lot of time to cool down after each shot.. I can optimize the suit to make them operate a lot better.  Even better if I can have a pair of them, one on each shoulder.

Okay, that's great, now I've got two much better PEWs, thanks to modifying an assaulsuit specially for them.  I'm going to write up the design and put it up on Hep.

(objections come in over offering two PEWs for what seems to be five tokens)

What are you talking about?  Five tokens more is just fine for secondary armament.


In the end, I don't see how I can consider it secondary armament if the suit is designed around it.  Especially if you designed the suit to make the PEWs work better, rather than be cheaper.  I just don't think I can justify giving the player everything that's desired.. much better, AND much cheaper, all at the same time.  Make it a little better and a little cheaper?  Sounds good.  How about 24 or 25 tokens for a version with a single PEW with an improved rate of fire?  Or how about some other kind of secondary armament that's more in line with the five token desired cost?

[Sean Mirrsen]

In the end, I don't see how I can consider it secondary armament if the suit is designed around it. Especially if you designed the suit to make the PEWs work better, rather than be cheaper.

It's the primary armament for the suit - indeed the only armament for the suit, once the kinamps are out. But in a mission loadout, it's secondary. You cannot sustain a typical mission on just the strengths of the PEW, unless it's exactly the kind of mission where the PEW would excel - like methodically sniping off enemy battlesuits while they are otherwise occupied. Or drilling exploratory tunnels in bedrock. By the virtue of its terrible refire rate, it cannot be considered a primary armament. Even artillery fires faster.

I just don't think I can justify giving the player everything that's desired.. much better, AND much cheaper, all at the same time.

Not everything. The AS is getting its strength axed for this, which is one of its two primary functions, alongside protection. And you can't take the PEWs out of your loadout, either. Can't drop them, can't give them to someone else. Firing a Final Shot is going to slag your suit's whole arm. There are plenty of emergent downsides that don't need to be explicitly defined.

Make it a little better and a little cheaper?  Sounds good.  How about 24 or 25 tokens for a version with a single PEW with an improved rate of fire?

Nobody would buy it. The difference in cost is too little to justify losing arm strength, when an Assault Suit can handle a PEW well enough to not matter anyway. The cost-gain curve is exponential for non-DIY items, it's always been this way.

Or how about some other kind of secondary armament that's more in line with the five token desired cost?

There's lots of options for that, but it's not the point. The point is that we, as tinkerers, are trying to conform to the existing pricing system, where paying double the price can get you eight times the power. You, as the council, are trying to change the pricing system, inventing something new to conform to your own ideas of how it should be.

Until you actually change the pricing system, so that ALL items scale linearly or near-linearly in power with increasing cost, current Armory included, we are going to keep pushing for the 'old' pricing principles in our designs.

[Radio Controlled]

I personally don't think losing arm strength is that big a deal. Battlesuit arm strength will still allow one to carry pretty much anything.

Anyway, to keep things moving forward constructively, Sean, I'd like you to make a list of what you are currently willing to offer/how the pewsuit would work, everything included (extra costs, what stuff it loses, what exactly it gains. So, not just 'gain 2 pew' but also whatever modifications to the pew system itself, such as the fact the suit radiates heat, the lesser arm strength, anything. All the features). Then the council will take this full proposal into consideration, tell you and pw what we think about it, and we move on from there. Use bulletpoints if you can, easier to work with for all included.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I should also point one another thing, that you're speaking of the 2 PEWs as if they represent 24 tokens worth of equipment. The 2 PEWs here represent one piece of equipment, that is equivalent to 2 PEWs. If the PEW were upgraded to have double the firing rate, it would not cost 24 token despite nominally having double the firepower.

Anyways.

The PEWPEW Assault Suit.

Primary feature: 2x Piercing Energy Weapon, integrated into the suit's arms. Fully functional.
Primary feature collateral: Arms have less muscle, effectively halves overall strength. Firing apertures inside the palms of the hands, can't fire while holding something without destroying it. Using Final Shot with integrated weapons renders whole arm useless.

Secondary feature: Distributed Cooling System, effectively turns the entirety of the machine's outer surface into a high-capacity heatsink. Required for primary feature use.
Secondary feature collateral: Significant damage to the outer surface will render feature ineffective - machine will heat up with repeated firing of the primaries, eventually to the point where pilot will be unable to survive regardless of body type. Renders primaries unusable in high-heat conditions where the cooling system will not have enough capacity to cope. At the same time, extreme cold will improve the efficiency.

Tertiary collateral/Balance considerations: Unit is intended as high-damage anti-armor fire support, as such melee options such as Kinetic Amp modules can be safely removed. Extending further to not being expected to deal with close-combat infantry, the Electrified Surface Defence System can be removed as well; the functionality can be at a bare minimum level replaced with the incident heat from the Secondary system, rendering any grapple points on the machine too hot to be used by insufficiently insulated personnel.

Other notes: The suit is not designed to use its internal weapons exclusively during a mission - the weapons are intended as a circumstantial anti-armor solution, owing primarily to their very low rate of fire. The exact usage parameters will be determined in the course of prototype testing.

[Radio Controlled]

True, but it also has the extra cooldown thanks to the suit modifications, which one could say balance that out again. Anyways, we'll see what the general council opinion is about this. More news as it develops!

[Nikitian]

For the sake of PAPERWORK TO THE THRONE OF PAPERWORK, I'll offer my design for council approval here as well. The design and cost have already been Piecewise-approved, if someone wonders.

Counter-Pressure Suit Underwear.

Skin-tight form-fitting piece of clothing that completely covers a person's skin from neck to toes. It is made of cheap basic fabric, that is moderately thin yet very stiff. There is a special collar-separator on the neck that is designed to seal off the helmet compartment when a suit is worn. Intended for wearing under any Mk-series suits, provides the MCP-like effect in case of suit breach. Comes in with relevant changes to iris-closing software in Mk II and above.

Cost: Negligible, amounts to 0 tokens.

Note: The idea is to give our Mk-III (and lower) wearing heroes MCP-type protection from vacuum in case of suit breach. Because MCP-III might yet come later, and they might prefer to keep their old suits rather than upgrade to new ones (e.g. Milno might prefer to keep to his iconic Badgersuit). This is intended as a temporary solution, but one that might or might not take extended time (up to the end game) to get irrelevant.
(Yep, I know that Mk Is are obsolete and no longer in use, but on general basis they are covered too. Just in case it ever matters.)

[Devastator]

I should also point one another thing, that you're speaking of the 2 PEWs as if they represent 24 tokens worth of equipment. The 2 PEWs here represent one piece of equipment, that is equivalent to 2 PEWs. If the PEW were upgraded to have double the firing rate, it would not cost 24 token despite nominally having double the firepower.

Just a few more things..  One, even if it's a bad buy, two seperate PEWs is still 24 tokens.  If you then, hypothetically, tie them together with a roll of duct tape, it would still be 24 tokens.  If you really think the second PEW is such a bad idea, it should be removed from the design.  And maybe, a double RoF PEW would be worth 24 tokens.  It certainly would be worth 20.

Two, the loss of the energy defence field in return for a thermal defence field, (the ability to makes your suit very, very hot) doesn't seem like removing an ability at all.  It's about a one for one trade.

I just don't see how it could cost less than a total of 24 or 25 tokens, as described.

Oh, and wiki-gnomes, final descriptions of items should have any conditionals, (such as could) removed.

[Radio Controlled]

For the sake of PAPERWORK TO THE THRONE OF PAPERWORK, I'll offer my design for council approval here as well. The design and cost have already been Piecewise-approved, if someone wonders.

Counter-Pressure Suit Underwear.

Skin-tight form-fitting piece of clothing that completely covers a person's skin from neck to toes. It is made of cheap basic fabric, that is moderately thin yet very stiff. There is a special collar-separator on the neck that is designed to seal off the helmet compartment when a suit is worn. Intended for wearing under any Mk-series suits, provides the MCP-like effect in case of suit breach. Comes in with relevant changes to iris-closing software in Mk II and above.

Cost: Negligible, amounts to 0 tokens.

Note: The idea is to give our Mk-III (and lower) wearing heroes MCP-type protection from vacuum in case of suit breach. Because MCP-III might yet come later, and they might prefer to keep their old suits rather than upgrade to new ones (e.g. Milno might prefer to keep to his iconic Badgersuit). This is intended as a temporary solution, but one that might or might not take extended time (up to the end game) to get irrelevant.
(Yep, I know that Mk Is are obsolete and no longer in use, but on general basis they are covered too. Just in case it ever matters.)

I don't really see any problem with this. Not sure how useful it'll be, but it won't hurt I guess. Should I really bring it up? If pw approved, and for something like this, I don't think much hasle is required.

[Nikitian]

On topic of PEW price, I just remembered an important thing here.

HEP is mostly expensive because of the generator, the energy-spewing black box is actually cheap-ish.

PEW is more expensive than HEP mostly because of complex cooling system (Sean, check me on this, though), not because of focusing system

In a PEWPEW Assaultsuit the energy is probably fed from a (modified from regular, but still in-built) generator powering the suit itself, not one specific to the weapon. Furthermore, there is next to nothing left of regular cooling system, its function is rerouted to the suit's armor.

Thus, it stands to reason, that an integrated PEW costs much less (which is, in all actuality, one of the main reasons that design was conceived - integration offers a lot to PEW). Something like this:

Code: [Select]

12=9(HEP) + 3~5 (focusing + cooling)
12=2~4(black box) + 5~7 (generator) + 1~2 (focusing) + 2~3 (cooling)
--------
PEW-generator-cooling=12 - 5~7 - 2~3 = 2~5As in, stripped down PEW costs (*roughly*) somewhere between two and five tokens. (Actually, this is a bit surprising even to me. But this explains how a PEWPEW assaultsuit can be reasonably made at 15 tokens with collateral of just a few integrated systems.)
@Radio Controlled As you see more prudent, of course; I thought you would appreciate me sticking to the rules and producing the proper amount of paperwork. I was, in a way, trying to repay your earlier kindness. 

[Sean Mirrsen]

Just a few more things..  One, even if it's a bad buy, two seperate PEWs is still 24 tokens.  If you then, hypothetically, tie them together with a roll of duct tape, it would still be 24 tokens.  If you really think the second PEW is such a bad idea, it should be removed from the design.  And maybe, a double RoF PEW would be worth 24 tokens.  It certainly would be worth 20.

Bringing back the comparison thing, between pricing items like you think they ought to be priced, and the performance of similarly-priced items in the Armory. A gun that fires once every 30 seconds, with a significant power but limited to a half-meter cylinder of force, can't cost more than the LESHO, which can fire much faster, and destroy things both much more selectively, much more accurately, and much more efficiently/quickly, depending on the ammo used.

Its firepower would be much closer to a Plasma Projector. Ammo cost and accuracy (plasmabolts can be dodged) on one hand, rate of fire so slow that the thing you're firing at can waltz up to you and punch you in the face while you're waiting for the next shot on the other. And less destructive power for the PEW, since the plasma projector can actually harm rather than aggravate Avatars of War. 16 tokens would be the "red price" for such a weapon, as the russian saying goes.

Two, the loss of the energy defence field in return for a thermal defence field, (the ability to makes your suit very, very hot) doesn't seem like removing an ability at all.  It's about a one for one trade.

It's not a "field", and it's hardly a defense. It doesn't work against: synthflesh, people in exosuits, people in robot bodies, regular people in Mk2/MCP/Mk1 suits, regular naked Sods that could care less about pain. It's a deterrent, not a proper defense system. It will only stop you from being ganged up on by unarmored civvies, like Paris was (I think) during the diplomatic mission's second phase.

edit:

On topic of PEW price, I just remembered an important thing here.
<snip>
PEW is more expensive than HEP mostly because of complex cooling system (Sean, check me on this, though), not because of focusing system

PEW is more expensive than the HEP mostly because it has more utility than the HEP. Token cost is not driven by resource cost. Resource-wise though, that's very much correct. The focusing system is purely mechanical, and uses the same materials that are used in armor, so it's definitely not expensive - the cooling is the tricky part.

[Devastator]

(16 does seem pretty reasonable for an enhanced PEW)

So, um, how much is an assaultsuit really worth?  You've got battlesuit-plus armor, strength assistance, rocket jets, electrical defence system, two k-amps..  That seems like well over thirty tokens of gear, probably over 40.


In the end, that's probably the main argument for pricing things so cheap, as the assault suit is so cheap, everything you attach to one must be equally cheap, the end result being you'd need to be completely insane to buy any other gear than Hep special 'A', 'B', or 'C', as weapons need to get the 1/3 cost to pay off for the price of being more functional than a standalone model.

Might be a better policy to not attach weapons at all to suit variants.