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[Parisbre56]

Has Miyamoto ever fought anything actually powerful? Because I think most of the time he's either killing sods (which, let's face it, die like stormtroopers most of the time. A battlesuit can easily do the same, provided it isn't ambushed with AT, and even then it could still win) or using his amp to stop some natural disaster. Strangely, most of the time something big attacks, Miyamoto happens to be away for some reason or not on that mission, leaving in his place other people to soak the damage. Coincidence?

The leaders of this revolution are using you, forcing you to fight and die for them! Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being used as a meat shield! (Obviously joking, since Miyamoto is in danger right now... if only because his meat shields are above him, trying to keep his fat ass in the air )

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Actually, if you wanted the most staying power possible with a universal Manip, it would actually set you back 33 tokens, the Avatar is ~11% less expensive than the best possible manip.

[syvarris]

Miya fought the Amp specialist, although Jim dealt the killing blow.  He also was shot at by a LESHO.  And once, he did a VR simulation of him vs. original, true Altered.  I may have forgot other events.  Every time he pretty much won...

[Nikitian]

Actually, if you wanted the most staying power possible with a universal Manip, it would actually set you back 33 tokens, the Avatar is ~11% less expensive than the best possible manip.

Nah, a universal manip costs (cost) 20 tokens, and an Avatar cost 30 tokens. Of course, that was before the new paradigm shift regarding the manips/amps, so I'm talking here about old-style universal manipulators (or universal amps, if you wish).
(Currently, the ability to swap brains (which RC demonstrated to be extremely useful) and not fry your own is what costs you that extra 13 tokens against amps. Which can be argued as more or less justified cost, but that does not relate to Avatar cost in any way - especially if we regard them historically, as in noting the original balance of prices. Which, as I mentioned, is apparently shifting, to the dismay of the few fools still clinging to the old ways for the sake of it (e.g. me). )

Miya fought the Amp specialist, although Jim dealt the killing blow.  He also was shot at by a LESHO.  And once, he did a VR simulation of him vs. original, true Altered.  I may have forgot other events.  Every time he pretty much won...

That is propaganda! General Miyamoto never really participated in any of those fights! Be a patriot, cast down ARM today!

Also, maybe he's *gasp* a little bit competent? Like, tactically skilled and open-minded? I concur with Paris (a true patriot indeed!), that all to often Miya' Avatar shrugs off damage that a battlesuit would shrug off just as well (give or take a layer of battleplate). In your example, I'd probably guess that a LESHO (except it was fake LESHO, IIRC, right?) round fits this too.
Not sure about other examples, though.

[Devastator]

Here's why I think the assault battlesuit thingy with PEWs for 15 tokens is ridiculous.

You take a standard assault battlesuit for 20 tokens.

You add two expensive weapons systems, and remove two very cheap weapons systems.

It's now five tokens cheaper.

[Nikitian]

Doesn't the assaultsuit cost 15 tokens (according to wiki, at least), and I think the strength is also reduced (making it third system 'sort of' removed)? And, of course, "very cheap" might vary with the person. But otherwise, I see no problems with your reasoning. It is logically sound.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Here's why I think the assault battlesuit thingy with PEWs for 15 tokens is ridiculous.

You take a standard assault battlesuit for 20 tokens.

You add two expensive weapons systems, and remove two very cheap weapons systems.

It's now five tokens cheaper.

The assaultsuit already costs 15 tokens. And I proposed upping the 2PEW variant to 20.

[Nikitian]

The assaultsuit already costs 15 tokens. And I proposed upping the 2PEW variant to 20.

That's... actually very reasonable. I am now sorry for thinking otherwise (I saw 24 back then) and not following the discussion more closely.

But yeah, if we're down to this, it might be prudent and try to fit in with other assaultsuit variants at 15-token-apiece. If only for the sake of keeping things uniform. But then again, we're approaching the low-token-prices, and where tokens are actually much closer to linear value progression, so there might not be enough wiggle room here.

[Devastator]

Nik, the logic remains sound if you substitute 'add two 12 token weapons systems, and have the result cost less than two of those weapons'.  In this case, it is suggesting that 90% of an assaultsuit is worth -4 tokens.  These are not energy drinks, which cost about 40 cents and are sold at 5 dollars each, six for two, where the extra sale more than covers the cost of the second energy drink.

The assaultsuit already costs 15 tokens. And I proposed upping the 2PEW variant to 20.

That's... actually very reasonable. I am now sorry for thinking otherwise (I saw 24 back then) and not following the discussion more closely.

But yeah, if we're down to this, it might be prudent and try to fit in with other assaultsuit variants at 15-token-apiece. If only for the sake of keeping things uniform. But then again, we're approaching the low-token-prices, and where tokens are actually much closer to linear value progression, so there might not be enough wiggle room here.

Because dual PEWs are just fine costing 5 tokens, (when they're 12 each) rather than -5.  You don't give up anything significant or important for the massive drop in price.  Make it one PEW, and say, 9 tokens (for 24), and that would make a reasonable case, IMO.  You save 20% of the cost for about 10% of the capability, and that's a good deal.

I won't buy into the excuse that it is a good thing to introduce a terrible pricing mismatch based on the idea that pricing is already totally messed up.  What other things do you think cause tokens to be more valuable as you have more?  Should some things be made cheaper?  More expensive?

I also think 20 base would be much better, as 15 is in two-mission territory, and I'd like to see it be in general 3 missions before you get to be a nigh-immune slab of armor, regardless of how you do it.

[Nikitian]

Spoiler: @Devastator (click to show/hide)

I must have misspoken, or was misunderstood... I conceded there that *your* logic of *that argument* saying that "this math is ridiculous" is sound. As in, I agreed with your reasoning ridiculing the prices you brought up in that particular case (not speaking of any other here).
(I just wanted to avoid saying that I agree with the conclusions of that line of reasoning, which I did not because of reasons, so it resulted in a possibly odd phrase on my part. I am sorry for the confusion.)


On the second point, I did not assert the position that the price must be brought down to 15 tokens; actually, I don't even have any good arguments for how it could be done, apart that token scaling thing, and I did mention that it might work quite less at these lower levels. I merely mentioned that it might be a good idea to try and make it cost 15 for the reasons I stated.

(I also cannot comprehend the paragraph about the token value scaling; where did I suggest that it already is messed up? It has a system, one that is there for a reason, and if it is somewhat strange to us - well, that's it. I am not suggesting to change any other prices; I generally enjoy the status quo, so I'd rather mould new things into the requirements of the earlier system, than try to change it. )

Finally, personally, I grew on the old pricelist with Battlesuits costing 20 tokens and Avatars 30; I found deeper meaning of the math behind such prices, and that reasoning still seems sound to me. Nonetheless, it was made so Battlesuits would cost 15 tokens rather than 20 (which is probably compounded by the fact it now has Aux requirements); if there is new logic behind these new prices, we probably ought to find it and learn to live with it. Thus, I'd initially agree that 20 base might be good, but 15 is the new black, so down to 15 tokens we should try and squeeze it. Maybe. Sorta.

(Also, however you look at it, RC's example shows that one can earn enough to buy a 20-token battlesuit after just one mission. Just sayin'.)

[renegadelobster]

So, you guys could also increase or include another required stat for the PEW assaultsuit 'cost'.

[Nikitian]

Yep, I think it could be reasonable (from balance standpoint, anyway) and would help with lowering cost. Maybe Con, because it's hard to aim it? Or Aux for the same reason?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, it's either add more limitations, or strip out the electric defense system. Aux the suit already requires. You could probably make a case for requiring Con, because you're firing the things through your hands, so aiming (and not blowing your own fingers off) takes some getting used to.

[Radio Controlled]

Well, it's either add more limitations, or strip out the electric defense system. Aux the suit already requires. You could probably make a case for requiring Con, because you're firing the things through your hands, so aiming (and not blowing your own fingers off) takes some getting used to.

I'd be much, much in favor of measures like the second personally, like deleting the esdf. Just more straightforward, and if people want it they can still buy it afterwards.

[Nikitian]

Well, there can be made a strong case that merely deleting esdf might not put the scales to balance still. And I seriously doubt that any particular system can be installed back. So I'd rather suggest trying, say, "Req: Con +2" because we've never done it yet, and here it might actually a bit justified. Or not, don't know.


Clearly, we need a range of superior equipment for same or lower prices with the stat requirement of Cha +2 or above. Maybe also add it to the Avatar of War - one has to be at least a little bit emphatic to control the raging creature within  (Gen. Miya would be spared from retroactivity, of course). Now that would put a pressure on minmaxers!
"Sorry, sir, I'm afraid I cannot sell you this gun. You are not cool enough to use it!"