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[Radio Controlled]

I always complain, it's in my job description. Both ic and ooc!

Also, paris, that with the tokens was a joke, you do with them what you want. But yes, I do care for newbies catching up. Proof: creating the team fund.


Now, while it is true tokens don't directly translate to resources, they do represent power, to a degree. The reason why a PEW costs 12 tokens, and not less, is because it was deemed to have a power/utility worth that price. And getting 24 tokens worth of 'power', for only 5 tokens in pay, doesn't sound balanced. Just like how some of the battlesuit variants don't sound balanced. Thing is, the latter were made by word of god, who himself created a council to help him with game balance.

Or, another way to say it: I don't think gaining two medium tier weapons that can one shot a battlesuit with infinite ammo for 5 tokens is balanced. Even fully disregarding resources, and only talking game balance, it still doesn't sound like a good idea. Loosing the 2 kinamps makes it a little better, but not enough IMHO. EDIT: At least, on first sight. I'd like to see what the rest of the council says. Maybe I'll feel different if I've had the chance to mull it over a little, but my initial gut feeling says it's a bit too much power for too little cost.


Let me put it like this: would you think it's balanced if we then made another as variant, that costs 20 tokens and comes with a free inbuild universal manipulator?

[Toaster]

What if instead of hands, it had arm cannons?  It'd be a step down in versatility because while it has two nice weapons, it has no other options.

[Parisbre56]

The team fund a large part of which went to equipment for veterans?

And since the battlesuit is losing things like the ESDF and having the PEWs forced to compressed shot and having them restrained to a recharging clip of say 5 shots lest they Cook themselves alive and having the arms be weaker/less armoured, wouldn't that be enough to offset the cost? Because right now, you seem to be focusing too much on the idea of having two PEWs instead of any balance aspects of it. You said that it would be better if it was one integrated PEW, but gave an argument that centred on cost about that, rather than an argument based on balance. Just because it is easier to balance one PEW instead of two doesn't mean that two PEWs is inherently unbalanced.

Same with the universal manipulator. If the universal manipulator was more powerful but constrained in some way (say, couldn't replace its minds or had the pilot be in danger of exploding when the suit was hit very violently) I'd be fine with that. It's the same argument you gave against modular vehicles: Package deals are always better at the cost of being less versatile.

Also: https://youtu.be/-VsDk7SIXa8

[Radio Controlled]

That was because, if their mission failed, we'd all die (at least, that's what pw made it seem like before). Other than that, yes, it's the help to team in general, and newbies in particular.

As I pointed out, I tried to use tokens as a sort of shorthand for in-game utility. You propose a slew of other things to balance it, but that sounds like a lot more bookkeeping, and a bit arbitrary, as opposed to a more straightforward solution, such as also dropping the esdf, or raising cost. That said, yes, extra limitations might bring this into balance again, but I have not heard Sean propose any. His original post mentioned keeping all the various pew firing modes. I have no idea what he is and isn't willing to barter with, and in the end, he is the one we have to find a solution with (that said, your help is appreciated, of course).

[Devastator]

There's a saying in barter-based trading economies that I think is relevant here:

"No matter how high you pile crap, it's still a pile of crap."

You are getting the two weapons of your choice, which cost 24 tokens, in exchange for functionality that is worthless, and then claiming that if you increase the amount of worthless functionality you are trading, it will somehow reach the size of the two weapons.

Additionally, the suit, with all the bells and whistles, is worth less than the two weapons.

[syvarris]

I'm gonna chime in, and point out that I'm on Sean's side, rather than Radio's.  In fact, I think the 2PEW variant should actually cost 15 tokens--although it should trade more than just the kin.amps.  But a 33% extra expensive assaultsuit, with two PEWs, and no kinamps?  That's balanced.  So balanced that nobody is going to buy it.  Primarily because the main functionality that the buyer is looking for is still the armor and survivability, and the weapons are just a bonus.

Also, I have issue with Radio stating that OP variants are only okay when PW makes them.  I get where he's coming from--we can't stop PW from breaking his own game's balance, but we can stop tinkerers--but it's extraordinarily unfair and illogical.  Should nobody ever be allowed to design a weapon competetive with the PSL, because the PSL is already OP for its price?  What if I made a PSL variant that, in addition to the normal functions, has a blaspistol mounted to the barrel?  Should the price be 18 tokens because that's more in line with the PSL's actual power, and tinkerer-designed items are always priced accordig to balance?

I don't think Radio really meant what he said, judging by his other arguments, but still.  That annoys me.

[Parisbre56]

That was because, if their mission failed, we'd all die (at least, that's what pw made it seem like before). Other than that, yes, it's the help to team in general, and newbies in particular.

As I pointed out, I tried to use tokens as a sort of shorthand for in-game utility. You propose a slew of other things to balance it, but that sounds like a lot more bookkeeping, and a bit arbitrary, as opposed to a more straightforward solution, such as also dropping the esdf, or raising cost. That said, yes, extra limitations might bring this into balance again, but I have not heard Sean propose any. His original post mentioned keeping all the various pew firing modes. I have no idea what he is and isn't willing to barter with, and in the end, he is the one we have to find a solution with (that said, your help is appreciated, of course).

Sure, I agree with that. All I'm saying is don't dismiss a balanced idea just because it's not balanced the way you want it to be. There are multiple ways to make a design balanced. You can, of course, tell the designer that you think they're not making the best choices possible, but they are the designer, they are allowed to make any choices they want (although Nik might choose to reject the prototype in that case).

[Radio Controlled]

Apart from pointing out that 'balance' is fairly subjective, meaning

don't dismiss a balanced idea just because it's not balanced the way you want it to be.

Is difficult to claim (who's to say the idea is balanced, other than our personal opinion?), I think we now just have to wait and see what Sean is willing to barter with. Still awaiting council opinion, for that matter, and pw didn't respond yet either.

So balanced that nobody is going to buy it.  Primarily because the main functionality that the buyer is looking for is still the armor and survivability, and the weapons are just a bonus.

I doubt that. If I had 20 tokens, and had to choose between 2 medium end weapons, capable of one-shotting a battlesuit each and with no ammo needs (but low RoF), or 5 tokens and 2 kinamps, I'd choose the former.

As to the second thing, no, I don't mind people having good ideas and making good items that are more useful than their raw token cost would say, when compared to old tech. Just that, in this particular case, I think it's excessive. Just like how I think some battlesuit variants are excessive, but I can hardly start nagging pw about things that have been in the game for such a long time. I mean, I could, but Miya is in a far too precarious position to do that now 

[Nikitian]

Oh, fuck. Good job breaking it, heroes. I'll try not to get deep into it as much as possible.

BTW, Avatars now cost 50 tokens.

Everyone blame sean~

Oh, I will. Because I have already voiced my arguments against that (back then when it was first discussed), but guess no one can help it. Oh well, all praise the very single Avatar of War out there ever, General Miyamoto's.     


On the assault-suit with integrated weapons: Tokens. Add up. Semi. Exponentially. Am I the only one who understands that truth? 21st token can probably buy you up to 10, maybe 20 tokens worth of assorted items. More back then when the Avatar cost less.

So work it out like that, and not like it's simple addition with a discount. Or rather, that can work too, but that means a huge discount, much larger than suggested otherwise. So work it in. Maxim 15: "Only you can prevent friendly fire" - only the tinkerer is to blame if he does not do all he could to decrease the price of their item. So do it, already; break your mental walls, making you think it has to be expensive for whatever reason, and bring the cost down. Beg Piecewise, persuade Piecewise, gamble with Piecewise, swindle Piecewise (okay, I'm not going there) - the final cost-effectiveness of your design relies on it. Don't you dare do a shoddy job of that because you were convinced "it ought to be expensive"; the end users - dirt poor ARM troopers, who have at best 5-token-per-mission pay for their last two or three missions - will not share this sentiment with you.

(Yes, I know this puts me at odds with the Council. Fuck them. That's it; me and them are both doing our job, only we are on the different sides of the fence. My job is in direct opposition to theirs; and I will neither hate nor like them for doing their job well - the equilibrium of the game balance rests on us both doing our best to screw over the other side of the equation.
Poor, poor Piecewise in the middle. )


((I'm sorry that it probably came out quite a bit heated, I was really struck by the fact Avatars cost full 50 tokens now, and then by all the internal struggling among the people who should really be on the same side of this argument - as Pyro's old legacy goes, the Tinker Union. And for the sake of honesty/historicity I probably should let that be as is.))

[Parisbre56]

I think piecewise was joking, given the general tone of the post and the absurd price. Unless you are joking about that joke, in which case I blame the Internets.

[syvarris]

Actually, Nik, the Tinker crowd seemed pretty unified on this front.  Nobody agreed exactly, but we all were on the same side.  Except Radio and Dev, of course, but they're the head of the council and anthropomorphic grumpy cat, respectively.

I caution against going down the road of warring with those who seek balnce, Nik.  I went down that path once, long ago, and it only ended in bitterness and sorrow all around, along with multiple meganerfs.  They who seek power above all else are doomed to spread misery, and the power will eventually be ripped from their hands.  Be thankful for the blessings you have, lest in your hunger for more you lose even those!

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I think piecewise was joking, given the general tone of the post and the absurd price. Unless you are joking about that joke, in which case I blame the Internets.

Nope, PW has been thinking about this for a while now, the avatar is a goddamn killing machine, for thirty tokens, Radio proved capable of destroying platoons worth of sods and survive a bridge falling down beneath him with a little more than a scratch, PW himself said that it would need to take about 15 grenades, every one in one of it's weak-points, to even slow it down.
If I'm remembering this wrong and in fact PW is joking then feel free to say I told you so or something.

[Nikitian]

I think piecewise was joking, given the general tone of the post and the absurd price. Unless you are joking about that joke, in which case I blame the Internets.

Nope, PW has been thinking about this for a while now, the avatar is a goddamn killing machine, for thirty tokens, Radio proved capable of destroying platoons worth of sods and survive a bridge falling down beneath him with a little more than a scratch, PW himself said that it would need to take about 15 grenades, every one in one of it's weak-points, to even slow it down.
If I'm remembering this wrong and in fact PW is joking then feel free to say I told you so or something.

Yeah, if it was joking, then I'll be very happy about it. But knowing Piecewise, it might not be.
And to the description above I would add that it is a quite restricted killing machine, by the way of its requirements. Someone with a universal manip is also a killing machine, but that's accepted, I guess.

Actually, Nik, the Tinker crowd seemed pretty unified on this front.  Nobody agreed exactly, but we all were on the same side.  Except Radio and Dev, of course, but they're the head of the council and anthropomorphic grumpy cat, respectively.

I caution against going down the road of warring with those who seek balnce, Nik.  I went down that path once, long ago, and it only ended in bitterness and sorrow all around, along with multiple meganerfs.  They who seek power above all else are doomed to spread misery, and the power will eventually be ripped from their hands.  Be thankful for the blessings you have, lest in your hunger for more you lose even those!

Huh, I was under the impression Sean believed it to be more expensive, and Radio suggested making it cheaper. But I might have only skimmed the thread, missing the important details.

And, well, it's like the "balance of Force" understanding argument ("evil against good"-balance vs. "imbalance against balance"-struggle). I mean, I am seeking balance in a way, for if the Council is there to nerf, I am trying to balance it out by buffing. And if Council is there to seek balance by mostly nerfing, I am here to seek balance by mostly buffing - and that adds up to meta-balance. (and so on, and so on)
For I am not seeking power above else, I merely believe that this is what I have to do, because there exists an opposing force that mostly seeks dwindling and dissipation of power (judging by actions, not by intent). There has to be someone to stand against the doom of meta-entropy and power death of ERverse! A lone hero against the very forces governing the fate of the world itself!
(At this point I probably have to update the list of "Worst thing we could face": "...Finally, Piecewise the GM, Random Number God, Power Death of ERverse, and, of course, Steve himself."  )

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Someone with a universal amp is a killing machine with little staying power and very vulnurable to luck, if they see a nuke or something heading their way, or even just a straight up rocket, or perhaps a particularly powerful laser, good luck surviving it if you don't have much in the way of defenses and get a bad roll, even at master level, a one roll still means the manip fails, with an AOW, a missle probably wouldn't even phase it much if it hit, and a laser would most likely just be absorb by the super cloak every Avatar comes with pre-packaged.
In a battle against one entrenched universal manip user, just send out continuing waves of small yet still dangerous groups of sods until he's high and dry, with an AOW, the best you can do is nuke the place, and even that might not work.

[Nikitian]

Yeah, but then again, the Avatar was half more as expensive. And with the semi-exponential nature of tokens, that much increase in power is probably ought to be expected (more or less; then again, it's PW's personal creation (and he is not restrained by balance, bless him!) - anything similar of the same end price would probably have quite less staying power - but still way more than could be "reasonably expected").

Then again, "was", apparently. We're slowly shifting gears to a different equipment/token understanding, it seems.