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Author Topic: Hephaestus OOC  (Read 167911 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1215 on: June 12, 2015, 08:20:40 am »

"Low kiloton" is meant to be read as 1-10 kiloton, in my experience, as opposed to 11-999 kiloton. The term for what you are thinking of is "sub-kiloton".
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1216 on: June 12, 2015, 08:34:45 am »

Hmm. Seeing as how this stuff doesn't 'scale linearily' with most anything, it might be that applying more force doesn't increase the speed at which two forcefields move through each other. Something to test I guess? Hell, when you initially shoved them into each other, was that done manually? Or with two big hydraulics pushing the fields or something?

For the fingers, I was more talking about the resistance between the hinges on the fingers and their attachment points on the hand and such. A finger joint motor won't be as strong as one in a shoulder, for example, so there the resistance might be problematic again.

I was asking cause pw might not have been aware such materials exist. But you're right, if you ask for 'strongest material we can reasonably get' it probably doesn't even matter what it really is.

Also, I'd maybe look more into the laser thing, check what constitutes a 'harmful laser'. Though yes, hexsand coating makes sense either way! Also, how does it distort the light, and what implications does that have for something inside the shield looking out? Will they have trouble aiming due to the distortion?

Well, a particle beam is a loose bunch of (possibly charged) particles, while a block of metal is a bunch of uncharged linked matter. Of course, all particles have the wave/particle duality thing, but a neutron/electron beam does behave differently from a lump of metal. I'd check it either way, so far this stuff seems very... Random with a lot of it's properties, so for all we know a charged electron beam going above a certain speed can penetrate it, 'because reasons'. Not saying it's extremely likely, just that it behaves too wierdly to be sure.

I don't really get the last part. Survive inside the fireball? What survives? The shield? The projecting material? Won't the first just dissapear when the second goes off?

Oh, and does increasing the amount of projecting material increase the blast?

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syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1217 on: June 12, 2015, 08:54:25 am »

I'll just not answer each question and point out that I have never gone into deep detail with most of this stuff.  Look at all these potential holes!  This is what I've been trying to get across--all the tests I've done point towards stuff being okay.  But, I make assumptions, because I try to avoid getting too detailed and in-depth with PW.  I figure that if any of this stuff matters, he'll bring it up.  Yes, the resistance might be a maximum speed rather than a function of increasing force for increased speed.  Yes, the distortion could be so bad that it effectively blinds the pilot.  If so, things won't work, and I get told about it.  If not, things are fine, and everything gets done sooner and with fewer death threats.

And I was saying it might survive the fireball if it's completely contiguously covered by FFs.  If it's not, we're going to have trouble with acids, lasers, plasma, heat, and all sorts of other coverings and AoE effects.

Increasing the amount of PM may or may not affect the blast notably.  It might be that a given FF's material will always explode with exactly X kilotons of force regardless of size, since it'll absorbs Y amount of force regardless of size, or maybe a poung of fragplate explodes with X kilotons force and so three pounds will explode with 3X kilotons.  I dunno.  If it's the former, then I suppose we could have some very compact nukes.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1218 on: June 12, 2015, 09:01:35 am »

... I certainly understand why you'd not want to pester pw with too much in-depth questions, but that does leave us wide open for a surprise. Eg "the enemy rolls a grenade through the field. Apparently, things moving in slow aren't affected. And now everybody explodes!"

Random example, but you see my point.

There is also the fact pw might only realise a potential problem later on, and then explain away nottelling you with "you didn't ask".

Finally, if one part of the shield fails and explodes, won't that automatically set of the other forcefields near it? After all, now the blast can reach the projecting material directly.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:09:10 am by Radio Controlled »
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1219 on: June 12, 2015, 10:41:24 am »

I agree with Syv. Once the armour is constructed, it will be tested in their shooting range by some unfortunate sods with multiple weapons. If there are problems or ways to bypass the field, they'll come up then. No need to worry about all the details and bother piecewise with them.

Quote
Also, hexsand just looks cool.
I dunno, don't you think that an army of mindless sods covered in hexsand has some unfortunate implications?

Quote
Finally, if one part of the shield fails and explodes, won't that automatically set of the other forcefields near it? After all, now the blast can reach the projecting material directly.
There's really no point worrying about this. The thing explodes like a nuke. You can't contain a nuke going off at point blank unless you're a Titan (and with the kind of armour it has, a titan would only have use for fragplate if it was in danger of being attacked by things like sharkmist). So once one part of the shield is gone the unit is dead, no matter what.

Hexsand could have a chance of stopping a nuke, I suppose. They're supposed to be able to withstand almost unlimited energy and a single kinetic impact. So if you put the forcefield projectors in a hexsand bowl, you could direct the blast away from the suit and absorb all of its energy, but you'd still have the problem of the suit being pushed back at lethal speeds, depending on how much of the kinetic energy the hexsand can absorb.

And even then you now have a giant hole in your armour and are pretty banged up. Your only hope is that the shaped blast destroyed anything in front of you.

Although if that works, the shaped nuke could be a fun one time use weapon for battlesuits.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1220 on: June 12, 2015, 10:51:25 am »

I agree with Syv. Once the armour is constructed, it will be tested in their shooting range by some unfortunate sods with multiple weapons. If there are problems or ways to bypass the field, they'll come up then. No need to worry about all the details and bother piecewise with them.

Quote
Also, hexsand just looks cool.
I dunno, don't you think that an army of mindless sods covered in hexsand has some unfortunate implications?

Quote
Finally, if one part of the shield fails and explodes, won't that automatically set of the other forcefields near it? After all, now the blast can reach the projecting material directly.
There's really no point worrying about this. The thing explodes like a nuke. You can't contain a nuke going off at point blank unless you're a Titan (and with the kind of armour it has, a titan would only have use for fragplate if it was in danger of being attacked by things like sharkmist). So once one part of the shield is gone the unit is dead, no matter what.

Hexsand could have a chance of stopping a nuke, I suppose. They're supposed to be able to withstand almost unlimited energy and a single kinetic impact. So if you put the forcefield projectors in a hexsand bowl, you could direct the blast away from the suit and absorb all of its energy, but you'd still have the problem of the suit being pushed back at lethal speeds, depending on how much of the kinetic energy the hexsand can absorb.

And even then you now have a giant hole in your armour and are pretty banged up. Your only hope is that the shaped blast destroyed anything in front of you.

Although if that works, the shaped nuke could be a fun one time use weapon for battlesuits.

If you wanna trust on pw being nice and telling us every potential loophole even if we don't ask about it/test it, then yes, that works. So, question is, would he?

For the second thing, I'm basically wondering what he meant by 'it' in
Quote
PW said it exploded with 'low kiloton forces'.  For some reason I've been thinking of that as 'fraction of a kiloton forces'...  Hmm.  Well, maybe it's tough enough that it can survive inside the fireball?  It's pretty amazing so far.
Mind you, it might not be a bad idea to ask anyways. If shield of material A explodes, is the explosion powerful enough to destroy another shield also of material A? If not, you could layer shields.
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1221 on: June 12, 2015, 11:10:29 am »

Quote
If you wanna trust on pw being nice and telling us every potential loophole even if we don't ask about it/test it, then yes, that works. So, question is, would he?
There's no way around this, unless you want to give piecewise a giant list of tests to perform with every weapon in any configuration you think will matter and ask which of these work (which I assume PW won't like and even then there's always the chance there's something you haven't thought of or some alien device) or spend an enormous amount of time performing small tests (which I assume Syv won't like).

A simple test that tells us that a soldier can use the thing comfortably and what it would take to kill him with a couple of simple tests (like a barrage of overcharge shots) is best.

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1222 on: June 12, 2015, 11:14:49 am »

Oh, I know we can't cover every possible situation. But not specifying anything seems too much in the other extreme. A few broad tests/questions to cover the most obvious potential problems seems reasonable, no? I mean, had any of you thought about the possibility that there was a lower limit for kinetic energy, just like there seems to be a lower limit for laser energy that gets stopped?

Edit: then again, chemicals slide off of it, so it's unlikely it seems.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:20:05 am by Radio Controlled »
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1223 on: June 12, 2015, 11:19:16 am »

If there is a lower limit, then it's so low it doesn't matter, because Syv has put things on a force field and they didn't God through it. Only loophole I can think of in that vein is if the material the anchor is made of can go through it, but I think one of the tests syv made covers that too.

Edit: Maybe it follows the e=mc^2 formula? So matter always has very high energy but light can have lower?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:21:52 am by Parisbre56 »
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1224 on: June 12, 2015, 11:24:01 am »

If there is a lower limit, then it's so low it doesn't matter, because Syv has put things on a force field and they didn't God through it. Only loophole I can think of in that vein is if the material the anchor is made of can go through it, but I think one of the tests syv made covers that too.

Yeah, edited that in, badly chosen example. Still, the example of particle beam still stands (I think?), and there might be other things. I don't think 'and check how various particle beams interact with it' is such a big hassle to check, but if you say 'and test with every weapon imaginable in every configuration' you also get that... But then you are just asking pw stuff straight on. And didn't he say he wanted us to roleplay our Hep stuff a little more? I guess it's one of those 'try to find an agreable balance' things.
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Nikitian

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1225 on: June 17, 2015, 12:57:26 am »

Spoiler: Tinkertime! (click to show/hide)
Summary: Minimum size of forcefield-projector is about stamp size (as usual; must be some universal constant in ER!); I figured you could use the data to speed up your experimentation, Syv.
Forcefield can be set to very thin, even single-atom-thick (with right projecting material, it has to be "strong" forcefield, according to Piecewise); a forcefield monosword identical in size to current true monosword is possible, is cheaper, and in case of breaking blows up with the force of (very roughly) about 100 lb. of C4. (And, of course, it never grows dull, and all other nice things about the forcefields.) It was suggested by Piecewise to include a thin core of metal in the blade to make it clearer how long it is (because, you know, invisible) which, in fact, does not decrease the effectiveness of the weapon. Perhaps we could invent other ways to help designate the invisible blades?
Finally, a new melee weapon design.

Spoiler: New weapon (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 12:58:59 am by Nikitian »
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1226 on: June 17, 2015, 06:29:57 am »

Suggestion: since the durability of the hilt is not that important, why not have the blade be projected about .25 metres away from it and have the hilt be extendible. You could even add extra modes like "Jackhammer" where the blade rapidly oscillates back and forth or "Spinner" where the blade rapidly spins around, either on the axis of the hilt or on an axis perpendicular to it. You could even make the hilt really flexible, extendible and programmable, like a thin but long tentacle-like robotic limb, and call it monoatomic whip, although that night be a bit overkill. Don't know what Uncon users would enjoy having. They're supposed to be all about weird weapons, swords and explosives, right?

Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1227 on: June 17, 2015, 06:44:28 am »

Make a vibrating rapier, with a small bit of forcefield shield at the end that's molded into a sharp needle. Add a very little radio reciever and a wire to pulse some electricity through the shield projecting material, thereby damaging the material and making it explode. You now have a weapon that can pierce a foe, and with a tip that explodes on demand (make the shielded tip expendable, meaning you can place a new one on the rapier).

Same principle also works for other forcefield items, like a riot shield that can be used as a high explosive. Or exploding bullet or whatever.
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tryrar

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1228 on: June 17, 2015, 06:46:06 am »

Oh hey, nik, did you get an answer from PW about my question?

Edit: NVM, I see the PM, thanks! So it's totally possible to make a battle ambulance/APC with options including full revival(assuming the medic in charge doesn't screw up, of course :P)

In that case, here's the preliminary idea of the Asclepius Combat Ambulance:

A half-tracked lamelar-force-field armored van with a full medical suite inside the cargo area, including machinery for full revival of temp-dead troopers as well as trauma surgery for limb and organ replacement and ability to install brains into full robobodies. The cab has a top-mounted remote-operated gauss machinegun(same as on the APCs) for self defense, and enough room for a driver and gunner. The cargo area has space for a medic and a couple assistants(basically the thing can carry a 5 man squad)

Any comments, improvements, critiques?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 06:58:51 am by tryrar »
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Nikitian

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #1229 on: June 17, 2015, 07:29:14 am »

@Paris OOoh, a monoatomic whip! That would probably be on the same page of danger to self and friendlies as kinamp nun-chucks, but it'd be sooo cool! And I loved your other ideas too. Thank you very much!


@Radio Controlled ...I'll look into it, but I'd say it has its use if and only if it can be made extremely cheap, and far cheaper compared to other options. You see, from mechanical standpoint, rapier's damage, unlike that of a sword, and closer to that of a spear, comes from tip and tip only. Thus, the main problem that I see with the suggested design is the rapier's long 'blade', which is clearly a structural weakness in the design: the main reason for such weapon design is that, IRL, we cannot have a tip of the blade "floating" in perfect concert with the detached hilt - and so we have to have physical connection between the two in the form of (not even sharp!) 'blade' (and also maybe for parrying purposes, but that doesn't work here in ER).  Here, we don't have to anymore!
So, how about instead the same design, even with the vibrating and projecting-material-damaging parts, but with the tip levitating at the distance of earlier design's blade length? Since it is firmly connected to the projecting material in the hilt, that part can be vibrated directly, resulting in vibration of the tip. And now this design, while comparable in price, is more efficient at what it does; and upon that can some of Paris's ideas be added.

As for forcefield bullets and riot shields... Dunno. I foresee some problems with that, but it might or might not really work.

@tryrar Happy to be of help  ;)
Well, it would probably work as well as any vehicle currently does in this game. And by that I mean (do not let that discourage you!) that it'll be far too expensive and use fairly outdated tech (see the long archives of our unsuccessful discussions on what a proper modern vehicle should be). Personally, I'm not a big fan of tracks in the era where we can cheaply get legs (or even rockets), but that is a question of preferences. However, what actually I can suggest, is this: substitute a PSL "Testament" for that gauss machinegun. Between the gauss weapon tech being really old and outdated, and the Testament's extreme effectiveness (compounded by that its ammo is liquid, and thus can be stored in far more creative ways that steel bullets have to), I believe it would be a clear improvement with no extra cost involved.
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Nikitian kneels in front of his computer, fresh lamb's blood on his hands, and prays to the dark powers for answers about armor thickness.
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