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[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

What about a las-sniper? Or would the Bluz(ri)fle at minimum diffusion fulfil this?

[Parisbre56]

Laser has longer range and no recoil but less penetration. It can fire as fast as you can reload it and is cheap enough to be bought and used by multiple people. It might need to hit a battlesuit multiple times depending on how strong the armor is where it hits it (one shot to melt the anti-laser layer+ some more, one for all the rest).

The PEW on the other hand can one shot a BS and damage severely those new hexsand equipped BSs and push them back hard (since its energy both melts and pushes). It can also fire without ammo. It is however more expensive to acquire and to fire. And it can only fire once per minute. It is also much heavier and can't be used without an exosuit and has much higher recoil.

My only suggestion is to remove the strength requirement from the laser rifle because it makes no sense (it has no recoil). And maybe lower the bazooka's requirement from exoskeleton to robobody to make it even cheaper.

@Nik: Make a spinning discoball attachment for the rifle. Instant shotgun.

[Nikitian]

@Nik: Make a spinning discoball attachment for the rifle. Instant shotgun.

Although it would not exactly be a "shotgun" in terms of damage splashed just about everywhere, fun thing is that with hexplate we just might be able to make that spinning discoball attachment. 

[Parisbre56]

I was actually talking more about a... disco hemisphere, I suppose. Something that will launch a number of laser "bullets" at semi-random trajectories. A hitscan shotgun essentially, like the one in Doom 1&2.

With a micro-hexplate coating on a shape-changing material, you could end up with a gun that would fire lasers any way you like. Door opener, horizontal slash, full diffusion, random pattern, etc. Only problem is that it might end up costing a token and be a bit fragile. On the other hand, it could be used with any beam weapon, probably including the PEW.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I was actually talking more about a... disco hemisphere, I suppose. Something that will launch a number of laser "bullets" at semi-random trajectories. A hitscan shotgun essentially, like the one in Doom 1&2.

With a micro-hexplate coating on a shape-changing material, you could end up with a gun that would fire lasers any way you like. Door opener, horizontal slash, full diffusion, random pattern, etc. Only problem is that it might end up costing a token and be a bit fragile. On the other hand, it could be used with any beam weapon, probably including the PEW.

The PEW already uses hexplate in the compression mechanism, and you know how it overheats trying to do what it does.

[Parisbre56]

True, but now you wouldn't be compressing an already large beam. You'd be merely changing its shape, trimming it so to speak. But you're right, it probably won't work... unless you do something a bit cheaty. We've got this new forcefield thing that has properties related to whatever it touches... If by linking it to hexplate we can make a sort of reflector shield we can use that to reflect the beam. And since the shield itself has no mass, it can never overheat. Make it from multiple small segments and you can make it change its shape (assuming forcefields can intersect and merge like magnetic fields). The only problem I see is that you would need a very powerful shield, something that can stand the energy hitting it without breaking.

All I need to see if that will work is some info about what happens when two forcefields intersect.

If the above works, then a more practical appication would be a hexsand forcefield that has parts that "fold" away so that the unit inside it can fire its weapons and exit.
And it would be even better for ampers, since they would only need one exit hole (or a way to deactivate the field safely).

If the "folding" method works, you could even combine hexsand and hexbug of it to make the perfect shield, capable of replacing automanipulator shields by offering a reusable alternative. When you walk around normally, you keep your shields folded. When you are in danger, you unfold your shields and surround most of your body with energy armour (there will probably be some gaps if the intersection method does not work. You can solve that by making it dual layer.) When you (or the automated system on board) detect that the enemy is using mostly energy weapons, you fold the hexsand anti-energy shield on the front and the hexbug anti-matter shield behind it. When you detect mostly matter weapons, you do the inverse. The enemy would have to be using some kind of gauss/plasma/forcefield combo round to get through that armour in one hit. And if you make the anchors more movable, you could even fold more armour where necessary, thus, for example, reinforcing your front by putting more shields there ("Divert all power to frontal shields!" "Aye aye, Captain!").

Only problem with that is that since some of the kinetic energy from the hits will be transferred to the anchors, they need to be sufficiently armoured and securely anchored themselves (or equipped with shock absorbers). Which should not be a problem, considering what they're made of and where they'll be.

A similar system could be used to create anomaly suits. The fact that weird shit isn't touching you and the integrated touch-less way to handle and capture artefacts and creatures would help. Along with a few force-cage grenades. Hm...

Just got to see if the whole folding shield concept is worth it cost wise and if it offers any advantage over physical armour beyond probably lasting longer. Maybe it would be more cost effective to have one big shield.

Sorry for rambling, just got inspired and started writing my thoughts. I'll put this post in my "things to do in Hephaestus" notes file.

[Radio Controlled]

It would, yeah. I think that's why they're "blasters". They don't burn holes per se, they make craters. It's another reason why the PEW's and the Blaster Bazooka's niches don't overlap much besides "blow up armored things". The PEW is a surgical tool in comparison to what the BB does.

Indeed, something like a blazooka firing at a battlesuit will probably give an explosion. Note however that pw gave me the option for the blazooka shot to be either 'more cutting, or more explody' and I went for the first. Still, some explosiveness is to be expected.

Now that I think of it... what if we give the blifle, say, 25% (or 33%, or 50%) power mode? And say it's the lowest possible, with lasing threshold and all. I mean that even 25% of a cutting laser power is heads and shoulders above laser rifle power; remember, even at 10x setting lasrifle was lacking behind cutting laser.

As for discrete modes - I like your idea, RC, but if I got it right (standard setting is about the standard diffusion of a laser rifle, right?), we might prefer to add a fourth option - "highly diffused" or something. If standard setting is to leave crater holes, and shotgun-setting is to leave bigger crater holes (but still not wide enough to threaten multiple targets), this one is to leave large (if shallower) crater holes - something halfway between a shotgun and a blunderbuss. Something for cases where large wound/area coverage is imperative, and target's laser resistance is lacking - say, for hunting for a really big xenos game (or, as Sean put it, a  single "crowd" target).

We still might have the balance issue though if we went that route. Limited ammo is the main drawback of this thing, in favor of greater power than items of comparable power. Hmm. Between this and the diffusion knobs, I could imagine pw asking for a price bump, even if only a token. Or maybe not, I dunno.

So, you mean splitting up ‘close range’ into something like ‘very big beam, like a HEP’ and ‘extremely diffuse, few meters max range at best’?

What about a las-sniper? Or would the Bluz(ri)fle at minimum diffusion fulfil this?

I think it would, yeah. Not sure how much better than small diffusion cutting laser you'd like really, for sniping light/medium armored infantry.

[syvarris]

@Blaster weapon balance (Also Spektr and Testament)

Okay, just had a thought.  The Testament costs four tokens, and is basically only a good weapon for killing armored people.  Unarmored people can be killed longer and more effectively with a Spektr.  The Spektr costs an extra token because it has the balancing aspects of extra power modes, and being useful as a cutting tool.

What does the Blifle even have that makes it useful?  Yes, it's more damaging than a Spektr, and slightly cheaper, but what targets even need that damage?  Unarmored targets would be killed with a portion of the damage, and armored targets usually have an anti-laser design; The cutlas, after all, is nearly useless against Milnoplate, and it has a continual beam rather than a mere blast.  Also, remember that the Testament is capable of penetrating Milnoplate with a single 9-volley, and gets twenty of those per mag.

Basically, if you're going to kill unarmored targets, you should get a Spektr; It has far more shots, plus a bunch of extra options.  If you're going to kill armored targets, you should get a Testament; It also has far more shots, and is effective against heavier targets to boot.  Tool use obviously doesn't work, since the Blifle fires in bursts, and is inferior to the Spektr anyway.  I can't think of a role that someone (who's informed) would buy a Blifle.  Maybe long-range sniping against lightly armored targets, but that's pretty narrow...

If the blifle can fire at laser rifle power, then you'll have people hooking up a rifle shard to a pistol, giving much more ammo for the same price.

A) Don't have two batteries using the same power source and same methods for weapons that are nearly identical cost the same and have different power levels.  I mean seriously, how would that make any sense?
B) Have the Blifle's standard battery be a two token one, which is slightly more efficient cost wise than the pistol's one token version.  Outright say that they can share power sources, much like I did with the Testament being capable of using a PSL's mag.  The extra tokens you're paying for the Blifle aren't for better ammo economy, they're for more power options.

As for the carbine, I dunno. I agree armory clutter should be avoided, but does that mean we should outright remove old things? Seems a bit too far in the other direction.

Brisant: 3 token grenade launcher.  Focused on lethal munitions.
Hand cannon: 3 token grenade launcher.  Focused on varied munitions, somewhat lower caliber (=slightly lower power) than the Brisant.

Tesla arc: 4 token lighting gun, which kills everything in front of you and will kill you if you're standing on metal. 3 token reload.
Chem thrower: 3 token flamethrower with multiple ammo types.  Namite kills everything in front of you, is effective against electrically insulated foes.  1 token reload, slightly smaller 'magazine' than the Tesla Arc.

Rocket rifle:6 token gyrojet launcher, ineffective against armor, ineffective at short range, ineffective at long range.  3 token reload, 50 round magazine.
Spektr: 5 token laser.  Ineffective against armor, accurate at long range, can use shotgun mode at short range.  multiple laser types.  Useful as a cutting tool.  Infinite ammo.

Laser rifle:2 token laser rifle.  standard chemical battery, 1 token reload.
Blurad-powered laser rifle: 2 token laser rifle.  Blurad battery, with greater capacity than chemical batteris, 1 token reload.

I could go on if you like.  This is just stuff in the conventional section.  There's plenty of other redundant systems, in conventional AND other categories.  Also, note that the assaultsuit was going to entirely replace the battlesuit, yet actually isn't entirely superior; It's slightly more vulnerable to small arms fire.  Some other things we're keeping around, yet are more clear-cut then the AS vs BS.

Actually, why should we want the lasrifle/handlaser for "cutting"? Cutting torch can already do that superbly; and if you just have to have it as your hand instead of in it, you can always pick Anton's Special Red Hand

Cutting torch costs 3 tokens, is short ranged, and has a limited 'magazine'.  It's actually nearly entirely inferior to a generator powered lasrifle, which also costs 3 tokens, but has infinite ammo and can also be used as a weapon.  The only 'advantages' a CT has are the fact that it uses AUX instead of CON, and that it's harder to teamkill with it accidentally.

And Spektr is already your basic lasrifle with a generator. Actually, maybe it could also be decreased in price down to same 4 tokens, if anything. That would put it in line with the new blifle and Testament shardrifle.

A four token Specktr would be balanced without the infinite power, I think.  It would be less effective at killing armored targets, slightly more effective at killing unarmored targets, but would be balanced by the ability to be used as a cutting tool, being a better suppression/blinding weapon, indirect fire (microwave electrification should actually be feasible), etc.  It has infinite power, which bumps it up a token.

So yeah, it's balanced as-is.

The PEW on the other hand can one shot a BS and damage severely those new hexsand equipped BSs and push them back hard (since its energy both melts and pushes). It can also fire without ammo. It is however more expensive to acquire and to fire. And it can only fire once per minute. It is also much heavier and can't be used without an exosuit and has much higher recoil.

We've never tested the PEW against hexsand.  I don't think it would do so well, since the hexsand layer we use is designed to eat a ball of plasma, and is magical.  If the PEW is effective against hexsand, then... I really need to work on a new armor.  It wouldn't do to have a gun that can one-shot our heavies.  If the armor can't be improved, then I'm gonna ask Sean to not let his gun be put into the armory, since the UWM could capture it and reverse engineer it.

My only suggestion is to remove the strength requirement from the laser rifle because it makes no sense (it has no recoil). And maybe lower the bazooka's requirement from exoskeleton to robobody to make it even cheaper.

Agreement from me.

[Sean Mirrsen]

We'll be testing the PEW against hexsand - actually I'm just going to go make an Assault Suit, have a sod pilot it out into a field, and have another sod shoot it with a PEW. But as to what I think will happen, I think it will be effective against the hexsand, in about the same way a laser is effective against a battlesuit. Hexsand isn't unbeatable to energy weapons, and the PEW delivers kinetic energy as well, so I'd guess the compressed shot of the PEW would only damage an AS, not outright punch through it. The final shot though, would probably be very bad for the AS.

[Radio Controlled]

Okay, just had a thought.  The Testament costs four tokens, and is basically only a good weapon for killing armored people.  Unarmored people can be killed longer and more effectively with a Spektr.  The Spektr costs an extra token because it has the balancing aspects of extra power modes, and being useful as a cutting tool.

What does the Blifle even have that makes it useful?  Yes, it's more damaging than a Spektr, and slightly cheaper, but what targets even need that damage?  Unarmored targets would be killed with a portion of the damage, and armored targets usually have an anti-laser design; The cutlas, after all, is nearly useless against Milnoplate, and it has a continual beam rather than a mere blast.  Also, remember that the Testament is capable of penetrating Milnoplate with a single 9-volley, and gets twenty of those per mag.

Basically, if you're going to kill unarmored targets, you should get a Spektr; It has far more shots, plus a bunch of extra options.  If you're going to kill armored targets, you should get a Testament; It also has far more shots, and is effective against heavier targets to boot.  Tool use obviously doesn't work, since the Blifle fires in bursts, and is inferior to the Spektr anyway.  I can't think of a role that someone (who's informed) would buy a Blifle.  Maybe long-range sniping against lightly armored targets, but that's pretty narrow...

I do think a shot from a blifle would be capable of taking out someone in Milnoplate. Perhaps not a full kill, but a crippling shot should be doable. And remember, I still kinda doubt the full extent of the power of the mini psl. And from a pure balance standpoint, it would make sense the blifle has more raw power than a testament volley, due to it's otherwise comparable power and better ammo economy. And as long as that is how it works for pw, that's what will matter, no?

One additional thing you could say is that a blifle is much better against targets in (decent) cover, because with a testament you'll need to waste ammo and time firing through it.

A) Don't have two batteries using the same power source and same methods for weapons that are nearly identical cost the same and have different power levels.  I mean seriously, how would that make any sense?
B) Have the Blifle's standard battery be a two token one, which is slightly more efficient cost wise than the pistol's one token version.  Outright say that they can share power sources, much like I did with the Testament being capable of using a PSL's mag.  The extra tokens you're paying for the Blifle aren't for better ammo economy, they're for more power options.

A) because the pistol needs to pack power in a smaller volume, driving up the cost somewhat (aka more power/cm³ of crystal).
B) That was what it was originally, 2 token for 10 shot pack, but various people suggested dropping that to 1 token for 5. Still, how does the math work out? Right now a 1 token pistol pack carries 1 cutting laser pulse of power, a 1 token rifle pack has 5 cutting laser's worth. Unless you change the numbers for the rifle, that'd mean you'd be a fool not to hook up a pistol to a rifle pack (which is much larger than a pistol pack). I guess something of a conversion kit could mitigate that, but probably not, dueto the high power difference.

tesla vs chem thrower

Eh, I'd say they aren't really that comparable. Same broad 'role' maybe, but very different damage types.

Laser rifle vs Blurad-powered laser rifle

The second... doesn't exist in the armory, does it? Pw said it wuld be possible, but nobody ever worked it out, and even then, that'd just be a footnote in the laser rifle entry.

Rocket rifle vs Spektr

Again, very different damage types. Surprised you didn't compare it to the sibilus, seemed like a closer relative.

Brisant vs Hand cannon

I agree these could be rolled into 1 perhaps. Blame pw, he invented the second


Also I don't see how exactly this proves your point. Yes, there are items that are inferior to others, but i wouldn't call that clutter. For example, giving each battlesuit type its own entry, instead of explaining the differences on its page, would be more like clutter to me.

I could go on if you like.

Yes, that would be nice, please do.

Cutting torch costs 3 tokens, is short ranged, and has a limited 'magazine'.  It's actually nearly entirely inferior to a generator powered lasrifle, which also costs 3 tokens, but has infinite ammo and can also be used as a weapon.  The only 'advantages' a CT has are the fact that it uses AUX instead of CON, and that it's harder to teamkill with it accidentally.

Perhaps we should make that thing infinite battery, for better balance. Anyone disagree? If not, we can propose it to pw.

My only suggestion is to remove the strength requirement from the laser rifle because it makes no sense (it has no recoil). And maybe lower the bazooka's requirement from exoskeleton to robobody to make it even cheaper.

It was there due to being about the size and bulk of a gauss rifle, so the +0 requirement (which isn't that bad really) was to represent that. But sure, I can remove it, not all that important a point either way.

[syvarris]

I do think a shot from a blifle would be capable of taking out someone in Milnoplate. Perhaps not a full kill, but a crippling shot should be doable.

This would require either changing how effective a cutting laser is, or changing how powerful the blifle is.  PW has outright stated on multiple occasions that cutting lasers are not effective against battlesuits.  Milnoplate is just a single layer of BS plate, so all those tests should be just as applicable to it.

But you don't seem to trust me, so go ask him yourself on IRC.

And remember, I still kinda doubt the full extent of the power of the mini psl.

Sorry, I thought you only doubted the power of the full PSL.  It would've been nice if you voiced this concern back when you accepted the first nerf of the Testament, but opinions change.

Please though, I already have quotes saying how powerful my gun is.  If you're going to discount my arguments by saying the Testament isn't as powerful as I say it is, could you at least convince PW to say so first?

And from a pure balance standpoint, it would make sense the blifle has more raw power than a testament volley, due to it's otherwise comparable power and better ammo economy. And as long as that is how it works for pw, that's what will matter, no?

Since when have we upgraded weapons beyond their cspabilities because it would be balanced?  We nerf them, sure, but PW typically doesn't outright give us buffs unless we use tricks like asking him the same question until he gives us a better answer.

One additional thing you could say is that a blifle is much better against targets in (decent) cover, because with a testament you'll need to waste ammo and time firing through it.

Sure.  It's also better at a long range.

Do those traits alone justify buying it instead?

A) because the pistol needs to pack power in a smaller volume, driving up the cost somewhat (aka more power/cm3 of crystal).

Okay.  Is this a reason to have them be the same cost, or an excuse?

Also, are you even sure that you can increase the power density of blurad by spending more money?  And that blurad batts aren't already small enough to fit in a pistol's grip?

B) That was what it was originally, 2 token for 10 shot pack, but various people suggested dropping that to 1 token for 5. Still, how does the math work out? Right now a 1 token pistol pack carries 1 cutting laser pulse of power, a 1 token rifle pack has 5 cutting laser's worth. Unless you change the numbers for the rifle, that'd mean you'd be a fool not to hook up a pistol to a rifle pack (which is much larger than a pistol pack). I guess something of a conversion kit could mitigate that, but probably not, dueto the high power difference.

Why must the magazines be so massively different as far as efficiency?  Your only reason is balance, which I don't even think is an issue--remember how I pointed out that these guns are already underpowered?  If you really want to make your guns weaker than logic would dictate, that's fine by me though.

Really though, why would you think 5 cutting laser pulses per token would be a good price?  Standard cutlas with low-tech battery gets 12 5-second pulses.  Blurad is supposed to be entirely better, cost wise, so why is this battery so inferior?

Eh, I'd say they aren't really that comparable. Same broad 'role' maybe, but very different damage types.

Name a situation where you'd want a tesla arc over a namite thrower.  I will then name five situations where you'd want a namite thrower instead, and then I will point out that the namite thrower is cheaper, has more ammo, and more types of ammo which make it more useful in more situations.

Basically, what person would choose the tesla arc, while informed about their relative merits?  I don't think such a person exists, or if he does, he is extremely rare.

The second... doesn't exist in the armory, does it? Pw said it wuld be possible, but nobody ever worked it out, and even then, that'd just be a footnote in the laser rifle entry.

I suggested that exact thing be made, and replace the laser rifle.  You replied "I dunno.  I agree armory clutter should be avoided, but does that mean we should outright remove old things?".

Again, very different damage types. Surprised you didn't compare it to the sibilus, seemed like a closer relative.

I'm not talking about damage types, I'm talking about roles.  If you have a taser that shocks people into unconciousness, and a gun that shoots gas canisters which does the same thing, they are very different damage types, but are used in the same role; killing targets that have light or no armor.  The rocket rifle, being a concussive/fragmetation weapon, deals poorly with light armor and doesn't scratch heavy armor.  The laser melts through light armor relatively quickly, and just heats up heavy armor.  Both kill unarmored enemies quite well.  The rocket rifle doesn't have much use aside from that, and only really has a leg up when you fight enemies who are only resistant to lasers.  At which point most other kinetics are still better than the RR.

The Sibilus is similar to the rocket rifle like the brisant is similar to the gauss rifle.  They use the same method of propulsion, they are effective against entirely different things, and they were both designed by Pyro.

Also I don't see how exactly this proves your point. Yes, there are items that are inferior to others, but i wouldn't call that clutter.

Oh, sorry.  I assumed you and I had the same definition.  Here, I'm using it to mean useless waste of space.

Perhaps we should make that thing infinite battery, for better balance. Anyone disagree? If not, we can propose it to pw.

Sure, I like this idea.  Backround will have to be changed (I think the CT is supposed to use chemicals?), but that's minor.

Yes, that would be nice, please do.

Will do.

[Nikitian]

Okay, this will be massive. Just like in old times! Damn, syv, I love these wall-of-text in-depth arguments you prompt us to make!

With a micro-hexplate coating on a shape-changing material, you could end up with a gun that would fire lasers any way you like. Door opener, horizontal slash, full diffusion, random pattern, etc. Only problem is that it might end up costing a token and be a bit fragile. On the other hand, it could be used with any beam weapon, probably including the PEW.

Actually, even if it costs a couple of tokens, it might be a very useful addon for laser weapons. Thanks for the idea!

So, you mean splitting up ‘close range’ into something like ‘very big beam, like a HEP’ and ‘extremely diffuse, few meters max range at best’?

No, God forbid, not. I might be visualising the HEP shot wrong, but I think it's massive, to say nothing of going wider.
What I wanted to suggest is (since not so long ago Pyro reminded us that shotguns don't have that much of a spread as it goes figuratively) for there to be three settings (beside focused you mentioned earlier):

• something that goes thin at medium range and can even reasonably reach long range (default diffusion, taken as is from the original laser rifle default setting)
• something that goes moderately wide at medium range (think warhammer lasgun beam spread; about a fist-sized (or wider a bit) intersection at medium range - probably as 4x-7x diffusion laser rifle setting)
• something that goes wide and nice at close range (the original "shotgun" variant as 10x diffusion laser rifle setting)

And while I am not sure the latter one would be useful in blaspistol (with a 4x power setting, maybe? actually, sounds good and allows for the same 5-shots model as blifle), I think both the default first and additional second should be there, since it's the blaspistol to replace laser rifle first and foremost, not the blifle.

Indeed, something like a blazooka firing at a battlesuit will probably give an explosion. Note however that pw gave me the option for the blazooka shot to be either 'more cutting, or more explody' and I went for the first. Still, some explosiveness is to be expected.

Can that be made into a separate setting in and out of itself? Or reconsidered? Basically, I am wondering whether "explody" blaster weapons would have more of a cutting edge (pun intended) over "cutting" in terms of armor penetration, because you know - laser-resistant armors.

@Blaster weapon balance (Also Spektr and Testament)
...
Basically, if you're going to kill unarmored targets, you should get a Spektr; It has far more shots, plus a bunch of extra options.  If you're going to kill armored targets, you should get a Testament; It also has far more shots, and is effective against heavier targets to boot.  Tool use obviously doesn't work, since the Blifle fires in bursts, and is inferior to the Spektr anyway.  I can't think of a role that someone (who's informed) would buy a Blifle.  Maybe long-range sniping against lightly armored targets, but that's pretty narrow...

I didn't notice that Testament can do nice against armor, actually. Still, I agree with RC that maybe blifle shots can cut a bit better against armor than shardrifle bursts - or something.
The main advantages of Testament I see are that it can work as suppression weapon (unlike any other in the Armory), allows hitting multiple targets with a sweep (just as Spektr, but cheaper - for now), and offers 'kinetic' & 'electric' types of damage.

Spektr, while nice and continious and infinite, is still laser-rifle-power (unless overcharged, and that one is troublesome, damn the rules). And laser-rifle-power just won't quite cut quite often, as you put it - at the very least, even less than cutting-laser-power. That said, Spektr can fire in different wave-lengths, and can use overcharge and that's why I think it's not too overpriced for 5 tokens. (Still, I thought that a laser rifle can have infinite supply for 2 extra tokens - between the generator and circuitry. If it can be made that way for 1 extra token, it's all the way for Spektr to become cheaper - to the same price as blifle and shardrifle).

Now, blaster rifle... It offers high damage output, and costs extremely low for it. Seriously, it offers cutting-laser-power shots (or slightly better, see further) at mere 4 tokens. And then it also has both "laser" and "explosion" tyoe damage (which can probably constitute for better penetration) and folds the same cutting laser concentrated pulse of several seconds into a package of momentary blast - beside utility (no need to stay out of cover for that time!), it probably offers somewhat better penetration just as well. And even then, remember, not all things are small and armored (or large and armored) like UWM soldiers. Some things are large and unarmored but simply tough, and where Testament would offer a barrage over an area, blifle could probably make a steaming crater of that same area. Spektr probably could as well, but only over time or with an overcharge shot.

On weapon comparison: I think Radio summed it up nicely, but I am going to go over one piece specifically.

Brisant vs Hand cannon

Seriously? Well, I agree that they have somewhat similar loadout, but they are very different in nature - and, most importantly, ammunition.
Where Hand cannon is a direct fire weapon, Brisant is indirect fire. It is actually closest we have to proper "siege"/"artillery" (if small) weapon, besides the gauss cannon and LESHO. Even if it does not see much use with us, it is going to rock with our regular sod forces, I believe. Edit: Wait, it's not exactly direct fire weapon, as it appears, and it does have more ammo loadouts from the beginning. That said, while I presume that many of the features could be possibly copied over to Brisant 2.0 (if ever), I fully expect Brisant shells to be bigger and more filled with Fun substances (judging by the weapon caliber, if anything). And that's before we mention that Brisant shells come as 3-for-token.
And finally, the main reason I love Brisant so much - those same Brisant shells are explicitly stated usable as grenades; I even had negotiated with Piecewise that they come in three-packs, like all grenades do. They should probably replace the old grenades altogether at this point, I think.
((And yes, those grenades Maurice has on his belt? Yeah, Brisant ammo. ))

Cutting torch costs 3 tokens, is short ranged, and has a limited 'magazine'.  It's actually nearly entirely inferior to a generator powered lasrifle, which also costs 3 tokens, but has infinite ammo and can also be used as a weapon.  The only 'advantages' a CT has are the fact that it uses AUX instead of CON, and that it's harder to teamkill with it accidentally.

It has 10 minutes worth of "ammo" actually. That's 20 5 (wait, since when did we change from 30-second batteries to 120-second ones? Oh well) times more than what you could have of a laser rifle magazine. And it has more power at that - all at the expense of having absolutely shitty beam cohesion at range, and using a chemical solution for "battery" (i.e. a generator could not replace it, unlike with a laser rifle - without a major rework, I mean).
But it's a utility tool, and we were discussing laser rifle utility use - and there, undeniably, cutting torch trumps the lasrifle.

Perhaps we should make that thing infinite battery, for better balance. Anyone disagree? If not, we can propose it to pw.

As I said, I think it is in the fluff that cutting torch is the way it is because it uses certain chemicals to produce the laser beam - powerful and unfocused as it is. Installing a generator might be possible, but I think Sean's Red Hand summarises how well does a "conventional" power-fed laser work as a cutting tool (even if one was to discount the penalties from the originally inefficient handlaser design).
So - I don't think it's broken, so best leave as is.

This would require either changing how effective a cutting laser is, or changing how powerful the blifle is.  PW has outright stated on multiple occasions that cutting lasers are not effective against battlesuits.  Milnoplate is just a single layer of BS plate, so all those tests should be just as applicable to it.

See the arguments up above; I agree that cutting laser has troubles against battlesuits, but I think it can cut (if very slowly) and blifle isn't cutting laser; it has "explody" part and it compresses several seconds worth of cutting laser power into a single blast - which might both contribute to it penetrating battleplate better than "pure" cutting laser.

Since when have we upgraded weapons beyond their cspabilities because it would be balanced?  We nerf them, sure, but PW typically doesn't outright give us buffs unless we use tricks like asking him the same question until he gives us a better answer.

...This is probably why there should have never been any "balance" talk in the first place. Keep everything to "physics", and let "physics" sort out which designs are more useful. But who ever cared about going "world reasons" instead of "balance"...
Okay, I am going to agree with RC here that we'd ask to buff the blifle. You know why? Because there are "fluff" reasons to do so (it's still unspecified how many second worth of cutting laser power is blifle shot, the power level is far above blaspistol, etc.etc.). But most of all because I hate nerfing existing things when we could buff the new one; because I will not suggest nerfing the Testament, for example. It's mean, it screws with backlog and makes for negative retcon, and I dislike that approach so much (despite it being the major one in ER). We've hit the power creep streak, so let us flow with it for now. I... do not think it should be the main M.O. for tinker-balancing from now on, but it could be a nice precedent for things like that to happen from time to time.

Really though, why would you think 5 cutting laser pulses per token would be a good price?  Standard cutlas with low-tech battery gets 12 5-second pulses.  Blurad is supposed to be entirely better, cost wise, so why is this battery so inferior?

I must agree with you here, so - yeah, it is yet another reason to increase the power output of a blueshard battery (and/or increase the number of shots).

Name a situation where you'd want a tesla arc over a namite thrower.  I will then name five situations where you'd want a namite thrower instead, and then I will point out that the namite thrower is cheaper, has more ammo, and more types of ammo which make it more useful in more situations.

Basically, what person would choose the tesla arc, while informed about their relative merits?  I don't think such a person exists, or if he does, he is extremely rare.

Can namite burn in vacuum? I don't think so, and that's where tesla arc would shine. Plus in hypothetical "oh God, everything is potentially flammable, we can't have that!" situation, quite likely. That said, though, it probably bears a bluerad-shard upgrade of its own, to make it a more viable alternative, but yes, it has its merits.

blueshard-powered laser rifle

Guys, guys, don't we already have that? By the name of blaster pistol, and even a token cheaper than the old laser rifle? Sue, again, it loses 'cutting', but it gains 'explosive' and I honestly think 'cutting' and 'sweeps' are overrated. You can kill people just fine without those, and that's what matters, right?

Yes, there are items that are inferior to others, but i wouldn't call that clutter.

I assumed you and I had the same definition.  Here, I'm using it to mean useless waste of space.

There's useless, and there is "inferior, but different variant"; unfortunately, I think that's the lack of this that caused the lack of assaultsuit variants and the ongoing use of old-style variant battlesuits (as evident by Lars example). It's the reason why we're still keeping HGC in the Armory, despite the acknowledged monstrous inefficiency. It's sometimes good.


Speaking of which, I now understood that we probably out to revamp the gauss weapons the way we did with laser ones (and yes, I still insist handlaser/laser rifle/possibly cutting laser are obsolete by now, it's the matter of speccing their replacement blueshard weapons). Maybe include a small blueshard in the gauss rifle magazine (and do away with the generators in the weapon)? It could both allow for increased power, rapid fire, and possibly lower weapon price as well (to keep with the trend of "1-token lasrifle replacement").
Have to provide a small and extremely cheap basic kinetic weapon option, I believe.


... aaand that's it! *Forumgasm*

[Radio Controlled]

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This would require either changing how effective a cutting laser is, or changing how powerful the blifle is.  PW has outright stated on multiple occasions that cutting lasers are not effective against battlesuits.  Milnoplate is just a single layer of BS plate, so all those tests should be just as applicable to it.
But you don't seem to trust me, so go ask him yourself on IRC.

True, cutting lasers don't outright slice up a battlesuit. But we're not necessarily going for cutting in two wholesale, I'm going for a crippling shot. As Sean has pointed out, it'd still cause an explosion at the target by dumping all that energy. On a target that only has 1 layer of plate (I do think amount of material matters, since more battleplate means more matter to disperse heat over, which is what gave it its good laser resistance iirc), I think that could be enough to take the target out of the fight (or at the very least, know them down for a good while). This has nothing to do with 'not trusting' you, by the way, I certainly trust you to give your honest opinion and not willfully lie, and you even provided links as proof! But I'm not sure if results from a full battlesuit plate can just be extrapolated to a single layer of it. You are right, asking pw might be best.

Sorry, I thought you only doubted the power of the full PSL.  It would've been nice if you voiced this concern back when you accepted the first nerf of the Testament, but opinions change.
Please though, I already have quotes saying how powerful my gun is.  If you're going to discount my arguments by saying the Testament isn't as powerful as I say it is, could you at least convince PW to say so first?

I told you before: pw has outright stated that test results don't always neatly translate to equivalent in-game effects. I still think I stand behind the idea of the weapon's power

9-Volley:
Unarmored:Damage is more comparable to a gauss rifle- could blow the person's chest open, or a limb off.  Very likely to be lethal, even on near-misses.
Light armor (Longcoat): Somewhat less effective than against unarmored foes, but still likely lethal.
Heavier armor (Milnoplate): Likely penetrates, although damage likely isn't lethal.  You've hurt them, but only a very good shot will kill them.

But from the post I was responding to (as well as some earlier posts) you seemed to indicate the mini psl would always neatly penetrate and kill a target in milnoplate. That might not be entirely how you intended it, but that's what it looks like.

Since when have we upgraded weapons beyond their cspabilities because it would be balanced?  We nerf them, sure, but PW typically doesn't outright give us buffs unless we use tricks like asking him the same question until he gives us a better answer.

I'm sure you know I'm not in the market for tricks. If an idea plain don't work, I abandon it and move on, as evidenced by the plasma weapon example. In this case though, we don't know how big a shard gives what power, so things can still be moved up-or down a bit if needed, within reasonable limits of course.

Sure.  It's also better at a long range.
Do those traits alone justify buying it instead?

Ah, it don't matter that much what we think, now does it? Shall I do an interest check with our potential market to see how things are?
Either way, the idea here was to create a weapon that trades in ammo efficiency for power while staying in the lower tiers, using blueshard tech to make that possible. Ideally, a blifle should be able to take on milnoplate-level armor. Maybe not shooting a hole right through, but taking out the target should be minimal.

Okay.  Is this a reason to have them be the same cost, or an excuse?
Also, are you even sure that you can increase the power density of blurad by spending more money?  And that blurad batts aren't already small enough to fit in a pistol's grip?

What? You said it didn't make sense, I gave a rationalization for it. Was it there from the start? Maybe not, because when I and pw discussed it in irc, it was mostly OOC-oriented, aka straight to balancing instead of discussing exact numbers for a while (which he hates). The reason for same cost is balance (same cost per clip but fewer shots should balance out, in theory).

The bluerad bats for the pistol fit in the pistol. The bluerad bats for the rifle fit in the rifle, and as far as I know they are quite a bit larger (need to give an amount of power equal to a full pistol clip with every shot). Makes intuitive sense, I'd say, but it's something we could check I suppose.

Why must the magazines be so massively different as far as efficiency?  Your only reason is balance, which I don't even think is an issue--remember how I pointed out that these guns are already underpowered?  If you really want to make your guns weaker than logic would dictate, that's fine by me though.
Really though, why would you think 5 cutting laser pulses per token would be a good price?  Standard cutlas with low-tech battery gets 12 5-second pulses.  Blurad is supposed to be entirely better, cost wise, so why is this battery so inferior?

You also need to remember I'm working off of what pw gave me. I think we can fiddle a bit with the numbers, but I don't know if it'd be fair to change it too much without his input. I challenge the notion they are underpowered, but we'll need to get more accurate info before we can say for sure (if a blasrifle shot can't take down a milnoplated opponent, then I might agree, they probably don't work very well). How exactly would you handle the batteries, then?

Standard cutlas get 10 3-sec shots per token, this one gets 5. It is also half as expensive, can give a 5x shot when needed, and is much lighter. Is this balanced? Others seem to think yes, and it is what pw gave me. You think its not. Is it? I dunno, balance is so subjective. Of course I'm not trying to needlessly cripple myself, but I'm also not munchkinning for the most power possible (I'd be doing this differently if I were), I'm going for a nice item that's a viable alternative.

That said, I'm moved by your concern for my lil' project becoming underpowered. <3

Name a situation where you'd want a tesla arc over a namite thrower.  I will then name five situations where you'd want a namite thrower instead, and then I will point out that the namite thrower is cheaper, has more ammo, and more types of ammo which make it more useful in more situations.
Basically, what person would choose the tesla arc, while informed about their relative merits?  I don't think such a person exists, or if he does, he is extremely rare.

What does this matter? Again, even if you claim one is wholly superior, they aren't the same, so I think the tesla arc should remain.

I suggested that exact thing be made, and replace the laser rifle.  You replied "I dunno.  I agree armory clutter should be avoided, but does that mean we should outright remove old things?".

You suggested a blaster, not a replacement for the continuously firing laser:

Second, could we add something like a 'Blaster Carbine', which outright replaces the old laser rifle?  Or possibly downgrade the blaster rifle to replace it?  I'm not sure about other people, but I dislike how the armory is progressively cluttered with more and more varied weapons, and old things are virtually never removed.  It's probably really overwhelming to a newbie, not to mention that we keep stuff which is essentially worthless for us now (like the gauss cannon or tesla arc).

Or did I misinterpret you?

Oh, sorry.  I assumed you and I had the same definition.  Here, I'm using it to mean useless waste of space.

Nah, I mean more as 'redundant' things. don't know if there'll be a lot of support to outright remove stuff from the armory. Though maybe we can add those things in an 'outdated' section at the end? How would you propose we handle it?



So, lets' count the questions we have for pw:
- can a pulse shot with cutting laser power cripple a milnoplate-armored target? If not, how much more powerful would it need to be?
- Can bluerad power density be increased for more money?
- how big is the rifle shard, compared to the one of the pistol?
- can we make the cutting torch have infinite ammo?

EDIT: sorry nik, will read your responses now, but no way I'm editing all that again.

[Nikitian]

That's perfectly fine, RC

I have mostly nothing to add to what you said, except one thing: I agree with syv that we've forgotten that blueshard batteries are more powerful than usual. So while you brought up 10 3-second pulses per token, and we actually based the shots number on 6 5-second pulses per token, I must agree and bring up the fact that we should not decrease the shots number the way we did; if anything, that number should be increased.
Alternatively, we could do fine with increasing the "length" of equivalent pulse. Say, if each of our 5 blaster rifle shots equalled a 10-second pulse from the cutting laser (50 seconds worth of energy per token compared to 30 seconds worth of energy per token), it would mean a whole different world of damage dealt (at that amount of time, even cutlas can cut through single battleplate, I believe) and a different niche for this weapon.
The same could be said for the blaster pistol; if every shot was equivalent to 10x shot of earlier laser rifle, we'll can get away with "shotgun setting" and even keep the consistency with 60% energy density increase for batteries (20 10x power shots to 12 seconds of 10x power shot, as of current lasrifle capacity) - and at that point it can be mentioned that "blaster" laser weapons allow more bang for the same energy buck, so the real increase in capacity is lower than technical 60%.

[Radio Controlled]

Now with 500% more irc quotes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No, God forbid, not. I might be visualising the HEP shot wrong, but I think it's massive, to say nothing of going wider.
What I wanted to suggest is (since not so long ago Pyro reminded us that shotguns don't have that much of a spread as it goes figuratively) for there to be three settings (beside focused you mentioned earlier):
something that goes thin at medium range and can even reasonably reach long range (default diffusion, taken as is from the original laser rifle default setting)
something that goes moderately wide at medium range (think warhammer lasgun beam spread; about a fist-sized (or wider a bit) intersection at medium range - probably as 4x-7x diffusion laser rifle setting)
something that goes wide and nice at close range (the original "shotgun" variant as 10x diffusion laser rifle setting)
And while I am not sure the latter one would be useful in blaspistol (with a 4x power setting, maybe? actually, sounds good and allows for the same 5-shots model as blifle), I think both the default first and additional second should be there, since it's the blaspistol to replace laser rifle first and foremost, not the blifle.

Ah, like that. Seems reasonable enough as far as diffusion settings go.

Can that be made into a separate setting in and out of itself? Or reconsidered? Basically, I am wondering whether "explody" blaster weapons would have more of a cutting edge (pun intended) over "cutting" in terms of armor penetration, because you know - laser-resistant armors.

Here we might have feature creep/power creep again... I basically just asked pw whichever of the two would be better at defeating armor, to use that, and that turned out to be cutting.

Can namite burn in vacuum?

Yes, it's self-oxidizing.

...This is probably why there should have never been any "balance" talk in the first place. Keep everything to "physics", and let "physics" sort out which designs are more useful. But who ever cared about going "world reasons" instead of "balance"...

Some problems: what if the god if this universe sometimes changes the physics, and not even on purpose, but by accident? What if said entity kinda sorta hated all the juggling with numbers and such for imaginary weapons on imaginary materials?



- Can bluerad power density be increased for more money?

00:47:50   Radio_In_The_House  2nd (there should be only 5 or so of these): - Can bluerad power density be increased for more money? Aka more power in the same size shard for more money, or is it always the same?
00:50:30   Piecewise  There's an upper limit of energy density in these things radio
00:50:41   Piecewise  We can make them bigger, but not smaller
00:51:02   Radio_In_The_House  So, it's not always the same energy/cm3 of crystal?
00:51:27   Piecewise  no, some are a bit bigger if the size isn't as imporant
00:51:39   Piecewise  but we generally make them as dense as possible
00:53:11   Radio_In_The_House  So, in the blaster rifle and blaster pistol, the shards have about the same energy density, just a difference in size?
00:54:34   Piecewise  yes radio, same desnisty of energy and more energy via larger size

- how big is the rifle shard, compared to the one of the pistol?

00:55:37   Radio_In_The_House  Ok then. 3rd question: - how big is the blaster rifle shard, compared to the shard of the blaster pistol?
00:58:25   Piecewise  the blaster rifle shard is about the size of an orange or so
00:58:48   Piecewise  the pistol is about the size of maybe your two thumbs pressed together

- can we make the cutting torch have infinite ammo?

00:36:51   Radio_In_The_House  1st: - can we make the cutting torch have infinite ammo? Not saying we desperately need that, but would you allow it? Some people feel it's kinda useless what with laser rifles being a thing.
00:38:41   Piecewise  Yes
00:38:52   Piecewise  It's not like I keep track of that ammo anyways
00:38:56   Piecewise  go for it
00:39:37   Radio_In_The_House  Just checking really, there's some people who think it might not be needed. But it's always nice to know if it's even an option on the table.

- can a pulse shot with cutting laser power cripple a milnoplate-armored target? If not, how much more powerful would it need to be?

01:01:58   Radio_In_The_House  - can a pulse shot with cutting laser power cripple a milnoplate-armored target? If not, how much more powerful would it need to be?
01:03:00   Piecewise  depends where it hits them
01:03:17   Radio_In_The_House  Because syv thinks the blasrifle is too underpowered to be of use.
01:03:37   Piecewise  but mino-plate is battlesuit plate and battlesuit plate is highly laser resistant
01:03:37   Radio_In_The_House  And some people also think it should have some more ammo maybe.
01:03:51   Radio_In_The_House  So, say a frontal hit.
01:03:56   Radio_In_The_House  How about that?
01:06:17   Radio_In_The_House  We know about the battlesuit's resistance to lasers, but that has mostly been tested with cutting laser on full battlesuit, and milnoplate is much thinner, meaning less material to dissipate heat into.
01:06:50   Piecewise  Yeah, but it's also a pulse, not a concentrated attack
01:07:53   Piecewise  I'd say that unless the pulse was more powerful then normal, then no. Not straight to the chestplate
01:08:35   Radio_In_The_House  How much more powerful would we need to make the shot to reliably kill/cripple/take out of the fight someone in milnoplate then?
01:08:58   Piecewise  In a single shot? Hmm. How long is the pulse exactly?
01:09:16   Radio_In_The_House  Note that people have also pointed out that a pulse should cause a small explosion where it hits.
01:10:01   Radio_In_The_House  We never specified. For the blasrifle, I think something like 0,1 seconds?
01:10:07   Piecewise  Wouldn't a normal beam cause the same explosion?
01:10:40   Radio_In_The_House  If you held it in place, probably, but people usually sweep the thing.
01:11:18   Radio_In_The_House  Though note that we aren't 100%sure on the explosive effects.
01:17:28   Radio_In_The_House  So, are we talking 2x power needed, or in region of 10x?
01:17:42   Piecewise  More 2X then 10X
01:20:12   Radio_In_The_House  Would it be possible to get this power upgrade to the blasrifle, and if yes, is there a cost?
01:20:43   Piecewise  We could just slap on an "Over charge" shot that drains more battery
01:20:51   Radio_In_The_House  Cause there's a lot of opinions floating around, some saying it's underpowered, some saying it should logically have more ammo per shard/battery.
01:21:23   Radio_In_The_House  So, perhaps say it's 10 shots/token, and that there's an 2x option or something?
01:22:24   Piecewise  sure
01:22:36   Piecewise  we can say 15 shots a token if people are [REDACTED]
01:23:12   Radio_In_The_House  I'm trying to find a good balance, but it's hard to find a good middle road that everyone can agree upon.
01:23:26   Radio_In_The_House  Still, thanks for the info pw, that'll help a lot.
01:24:35   Piecewise  No prob