06:39:04 <syvarris> Uh, first thing I wanted to talk about was the Man-Machine-Interface, I think.
06:39:16 <piecewise> alright, what about it
06:39:59 <syvarris> Original specifications that I asked for were "No more invasive than a MK.II, and possibly an implant like an amp. At least as good as a robobody braincase.
06:40:49 <piecewise> thats possible. An implant which syncs up to an external system is probably easiest
06:42:07 <syvarris> That's what I figured. I had meant to ask in Heph OOC, but do you think including it as the control system for a battlesuit would be a bad idea? In theory, it would allow the thing to be even thinner, and allow easier/better control.
06:41:53 <SeanMirrsen> For my part I wanted to ascertain the design of the new ships, figure out what the shipyards been doing in the meantime, and maybe see about a project or two.
06:44:22 <piecewise> Sean: Alright, we can do that. Sy: as an alternative version of a control system it might work but It wouldn't shrink the suit by much. Though it would turn certain rolls into dex or str rolls as opposed to AUX ones
06:45:57 <syvarris> Hmm. I had thought the innards of a BS had a lot of monitor and keyboards, plus the space to operate them. It wouldn't cut the size by a few inches? 'Cause inches are important, since it can currently only fit through larger doors.
06:47:27 <piecewise> It would cut it down by a bit, sure, but when we're talking about the fat bastard that is a battle suit standard, it won't matter too much
06:47:40 <piecewise> with other measures though, yeah, it could make it skinnier
06:48:16 <syvarris> Well, I'm gonna apply it to the assault suit, which already has thin armor and size improvements. Every vaugely-defined inch helps.
06:48:26 <piecewise> fair enough
06:49:17 <syvarris> Do you/ARESTEVE/Sean think the loss of carrying normal infantry equipment would matter? On one hand, you shouldn't need to disembark to go indoors, but you can't easily run if the thing gets crippled.
06:50:50 <piecewise> Well, you should still be able to get out if it's crippled, you'd just have to disconnect yourself, which shouldn't be hard, since it's just an implant
06:51:26 <SeanMirrsen> Loss of... can you clarify that phrasing? How does carrying normal infantry equipment affect disembarking and running?
06:51:36 <syvarris> Yeah, but with less equipment. I know that people who rode in Gilgamesh usually carried guns an MK.IIs and everything.
06:51:54 <SeanMirrsen> Ah, inside the suit.
06:52:25 <piecewise> We can usually say they are in some sort of hammer space, if you're just worried about it not having space in the machine
06:51:29 <piecewise> hmm wireless or matrix style "plug in"
06:52:05 <syvarris> I figure plugging in would be better. Slightly better latency if nothing else.
06:53:31 <piecewise> An implant would make it more viable. it would give it a cost, take a place in your head, etc. give me ways to fuck with your head. We could make it a universal system. able to use it on anything thats modified for it
06:55:28 <syvarris> That would be the idea, yes. Partially it's just to allow people obsessed with keeping flesh bodies to get some of the benefits of robobodies, like possession.
06:54:35 <syvarris> Umm, next question would be whether or not it could be used to... 'adjust' or 'improve' stats like Dex. I.E. having the computer automatically refine your movements when wearing an MK.III or something.
06:56:58 <piecewise> Hmm. That seems like a bit too much. I mean, how long till everyone just pilots robot bodies from the ship that all have stat adusting programs?
06:58:41 <syvarris> I wouldn't think that people would remotely pilot bodies from the ship using this; the framework already exists for robots, why would giving the same ability to fleshies change anything? I was figuring possession wouldn't benefit anyone except NPCs and Heph personnel, like Anton, Maurice, and Flint.
07:00:10 <piecewise> What robot system gives stat bonuses like that? Besides synthflesh.
07:00:38 <syvarris> Oh, not the stat bonuses. That was just seeing what limits exist. I was just talking about possession there.
07:01:18 <piecewise> ok, so possession of battlesuits. Fine. what are the other uses you have in mind?
07:02:06 <syvarris> For that... Nothing offhand. Maybe better synch with spaceships?
07:01:47 <SeanMirrsen> Instant comms. Do away with wristpads. (as a communication standard, at least)
07:02:17 <syvarris> Oh, yeah, that would be great. Definitely.
07:04:17 <SeanMirrsen> Also, I think possession might be problematic for flesh-people. It's one thing to send signals out of a body that just has to remain motionless, but a regular living body a brain has to actually run in the meantime.
07:05:09 <syvarris> That... is a very good point. Come to think of it, the possession software disables signals to the body, which this can't do. Hmm.
07:05:56 <piecewise> Yeah, that system would basically make the user catatonic while they're "Possessing" things. But we could work "telepathic" communication between implanted soldiers in there without needing them to go a little comatose each time they talk
07:06:29 <syvarris> PW, could the implant be designed to disable signals to the body? And *not* disable the user if the device is destroyed?
07:07:14 <piecewise> Well, if you disable signals to the body, body goes catatonic, or at least floppy. The idea, I assumed, was that you basically use the battlesuit like miya uses the avatar
07:07:44 <syvarris> Sure. I just don't want a powerful EMP to suddenly make all our soldiers floppy.
07:08:31 <piecewise> nah. well, maybe if they're linked into something. but as long as they're not "possessing" anything, they'll be fine
07:09:44 <syvarris> Okay then, that's fine. I don't think there's anything else that this tech needs. Sean? I feel like I'm hogging PW, so do you want to take a turn?
07:11:41 <SeanMirrsen> Well I had a secret project the details of which I wanted to run by him, but otherwise there's the new ships, the shipyards, the "aero Mk3", a mechanical laser, and some further operations on the Piercing Energy Weapon. Take your pick.
07:11:59 <Caellath> Secret project?
07:12:09 <SeanMirrsen> Like the PEW was.
07:12:18 <syvarris> There's a PM function, if ya don't want me to know about the secrets.
07:13:24 <SeanMirrsen> I know, but PW seems to have missed it. In the chat here, I mean. I didn't want to forum-PM him because of whatever issues he was having, and I figured a suspension of Heph activity included secret activity as well.
07:12:30 <piecewise> Sean's gonna have plenty of them soon enough. Doctor's coming to heph, and he's bringing Jim's corpse
07:15:51 <SeanMirrsen> Okay, so if nobody wants to pick, let's start with the simpler matter. What were our shipyards making between whenever it was we set them to build more ships, and now?
07:17:03 <SeanMirrsen> Just to get it out of the way as a question. Obviously some kind of UWM-design battleships and cruisers, but what weaponry, and do they have any of the new armor?
07:20:04 <piecewise> alrighty. So yeah, If those ships I set you to make in semi secret are made, then it's up to you. The deadships are all I had planned
07:22:25 <SeanMirrsen> They were never actually cleared by Simus, but since I had the designs and everything and the shipyards have been running under Anton's supervision for a while now anyway, let's assume they are made.
07:23:19 <piecewise> Simus being braindead shouldn't be a roadblock, so yeah, lets consider that done
07:29:57 <SeanMirrsen> What do we know they /are/, besides one being a huge death laser, and the other being a regular death-laser disco-brick? What do they have?
07:31:39 <SeanMirrsen> Starting with the "Grazer", as I suppose it is now going to be officially called since people are calling it that. It has a humongous gamma-ray laser. It means it's ridiculously long. How ridiculously long can we make a ship without running into logistical issues, PW?
07:34:08 <SeanMirrsen> Bare minimum for a graser, even with any "this is the future" discounts, is going to be at least a kilometer in length, preferably more. Since it's a /long/ ship, if it has just the laser it's going to be a rather /thin/ ship, which as far as I know is not terribly good. What can a giant artillery ship have that would pad out its size usefully? Secondary weapons? Missile bays? Fighter craft hangars?
07:38:54 <syvarris> Why's thin bad? It's long-range, right? If so, it's only gonna be hit by lasers, so structural integrity isn't extremely important, I'd think. Unless you want it to land on a planet, maybe?
07:40:38 <SeanMirrsen> Maneuvering under attack? It's artillery, but it'd be neat if it could actually not be a sitting duck. And the more rigid the frame, the better for the laser.
07:40:46 <piecewise> It being long and fragile shouldn't matter as long as it just stays in space and doesn't try to maneuver much. Which, considering it's design, I assume it's a very long range attack platform sorta thing right?
07:41:39 <SeanMirrsen> Yes. Something to snipe intrudes at the edge of the solar system with kinda thing.
07:41:59 <syvarris> How much maneuvering is needed to avoid gauss shells? Just add some extra thrusters along the ends. Cheaper than adding superfluous fighter bays. Or, alternatively, build the core out of something stronger to compensate.
07:43:50 <SeanMirrsen> Okay, I suppose we can assume that it can take a bit of flexing, and has means to stabilize before firing.I agree that outright fighter bays wouldn't be terribly practical, I just find the concept of a spaceship that handles like a bendy straw kind of odd.
07:46:09 <piecewise> Assuming they're not guided or anything, even a tiny bit of movement is enough to dodge.
07:47:07 <SeanMirrsen> Okay, so that's one thing. I'm assuming we'll be developing some kind of standardized spaceship armor, based on the layered composites Saint developed for the assault suit.
07:47:13 <syvarris> How often does the UWM use guided gauss weapons? In general, should we design our ships to resist them, just so they can't just take out all our ships with only a minor overhaul?
07:47:58 <syvarris> I had thought we'd just used hexsand, because hexbug is heavy, and kinetics weren't a big problem anyway.
07:48:53 <piecewise> The big problem would be if they got close, since it wouldn't be maneuvering very well.
07:49:15 <piecewise> Jumping would take a long time too
07:49:34 <SeanMirrsen> That's a problem all artillery faces. Well, not jumping, but mobility in general.
It's going to have escorts either way.
07:52:35 <piecewise> brb
07:54:58 <syvarris> Sean, what did you think of my remote control spaceships idea? Using QECs and robots instead of crew?
07:58:09 <SeanMirrsen> QEC is good as a general-purpose control method, and there will be robots on those ships either way, but I am still of the mind that the ship needs to have a "crew", even if it's robots. It needs some autonomy.
07:58:57 <SeanMirrsen> The most practical way I can think of is making them Unbound. (I can't help but use that term, I like it way too much.
)
07:59:25 <syvarris> Hmm. I agree that a ship needs some sort of personal crew, but I don't think organics are needed. Some basic combat AI that can shoot and manuever, but can't grasp tactics, would be sufficient. Also, I'm not really sure what Unbound means.
08:00:43 <SeanMirrsen> Unbound is a Homeworld term.
It means a living being integrated into a spaceship, in a way that the ship acts as their body.
08:02:04 <syvarris> Ah. So a braincase bot controlling a ship, essentially. Or actual wetware.
08:02:12 <SeanMirrsen> Basically, yes.
08:02:17 <syvarris> Why do you think we need that level of intelligence?
08:02:57 <SeanMirrsen> "Intelligence" is a relative term, but I feel that spaceships are going to be like soldiers that we send out into the battlefield. If we have a living brain inside every robot body we send out to fight, surely we can afford the same level of on-site intelligence in our much rarer and more expensive ships.
08:04:17 <syvarris> I disagree. Soldiers have a lot of issues, like balancing, steering, all the different positions a body can be in, and how it affects aim... A ship doesn't have to contend with complicated movements; they just thrust, which is mathmatically simple in comparison. No muscles. Their aiming is also much simpler, since movement only affects it with momentum. And they use turrets.
08:06:36 <Caellath> Being thin actually makes that ship good for its role, doesn't it? The smaller the target, the less space it has to cover while trying to dodge.
08:06:52 <syvarris> Also, we use brain in bodies because there's way more data to process, and the individual cost of a soldier is way cheaper, plus they're smaller. We can't afford to put a QEC on each robosod, let alone fit one on each.
08:17:13 <SeanMirrsen> On the other hand, a robot body has to take care of much simpler logistical tasks. Move, aim, shoot, it's all simple motions, and it can do nothing else. A ship has internal systems to manage, repairs to prioritize, it has to always navigate in three dimensions and make decisions based on its velocity relative to the target as well as positions of its allies.
08:18:06 <SeanMirrsen> While it may work with movements that are easier to for a regular computer to work with than humanoid body movement, it has a lot of other things it needs to take care of on its own. Plus I'd like to avoid this if at all possible:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KeystoneArmy08:19:20 <syvarris> What complicated decisions does it need to make? Adjust aim for momentum, and don't aim at allies. Maybe compensate for nearby gravitational fluxes, and enemy momentum. That's less things to remember than a sniper, and it can fire easier too. Maintaining systems... I don't know. I'd think a ship doesn't need to make many complicated decisions for systems, in the span of a battle, but I really can't say.
08:20:31 <syvarris> Why would making the ships non-organic make it a keystone army?
08:20:51 <SeanMirrsen> Take out the command center, the whole fleet is poof. With no way to make it go bar going to each and every ship and replacint the QEC units that point to new nodes.
08:22:25 <syvarris> Oh. I'd think we could handle that by just spreading out the QEC net. This ship's linked to Q'baja, this one to Heph, this one to Sedr'av... We should do that regardless, really.
08:28:54 <SeanMirrsen> Maybe, but that's again extra logistics. I think it's overall much more practical to have a ship you can just give orders to, and control directly /as needed/, than a ship you can just control directly. Kinda like your robosod Saint-clones.
08:30:39 <syvarris> I still think that it's inefficient, since a human will want extra accommodations, but it probably doesn't matter. Adding a VR setup and a tank of brainfood won't ruin anything... It does lose the benefit that we can have less pilots, and those pilots will be more experienced. Unless you just don't want to use the onboard brains unless needed, I guess.
08:35:39 <SeanMirrsen> Think of them as really large, non-synthflesh Avatars of War for sods.
08:37:01 <syvarris> Wait, are we going to use sod pilots? That's... actually probably a very good idea, but it hadn't even occurred to me.
08:38:20 <SeanMirrsen> Did you think I was proposing to use human pilots? The fleet is our army of space, as the sods are our army on the ground.
08:39:32 <syvarris> For some reason I've always assumed we'd use human pilots. I honestly have no idea why, that seems pretty obvious. Sometimes I am inexplicably very stupid.
08:40:58 <SeanMirrsen> Well they /are/ human, for a given definition.
08:42:53 <syvarris> Calling sods human is really a misnomer though. Technically, an airsoft pistol is a gun, but if you say "I WILL SHOOT YOU WITH A GUN" people will think you're threatening them with death rather than annoyance.
08:43:14 <piecewise> Funny that you would mention autonomous ships. thats gonna come up in this next set of missions
08:43:53 <syvarris> Uhm. Okay? Will we get cool tech out of it?
08:44:31 <piecewise> From that ship? Probably not. But it's gonna be useful for the tech we will get. You guys remember the Haebi?
((Nobody says yes? Really?))
08:50:01 <syvarris> Hey, it occurs to me, couldn't Milno heal all those scars using the sharkmist symbiosis? So that he looks like a mostly normal kid?
08:50:30 <piecewise> yes. well, except for the metal arm
08:50:15 <piecewise> Soon as joker team gets home we're installing the override systems.
08:50:52 <Caellath> Override systems?
08:52:47 <piecewise> Something ARESTEVE has been working on, should let steve take direct control of a player for short periods. It may or may not kill the player. Steve is very effective but doesn't play nice with the bodies. It's a last resort. I'm only giving it to a few people
08:54:09 <syvarris> Why doesn't he just use possession software on robobodied people?
08:54:34 <piecewise> Will still fuck their bodies up
08:54:30 <Caellath> I suppose he's implanting them on the b.ops people so he can get the job done at any cost.
08:54:43 <piecewise> yes
08:55:10 <syvarris> Oh, so he won't brain kill people? That's boring.
08:55:45 <piecewise> depends. It might damage their brains depending on end rolls. cause stat losses. the basic idea is that steve uses your brain as his wetware for a short period. that could burn your gray matter out in under a minute
((...))
08:57:36 <Caellath> Armburgers should be the rebellion's typical dish.
08:57:50 <piecewise> we're gonna need a lot of arms. We could use GWG's old character
08:58:21 <syvarris> Can we actually use him for anything? I had assumed he was off-limits, since GWG left.
08:58:35 <piecewise> he'll be around until certain things come to pass. and Grate was kept alive to deliver a message. He'll stay alive till it is done. He'll just be very quiet till then. Look at it like this; there are a lot of things under your control, a lot of parts of your destiny that are mutable. But certain things will remain in motion regardless, if only because they're too big to really notice your actions.
09:03:01 <syvarris> Since Sean doesn't seem to be around... Before I go on, clarification on the MMI; We decided that it would just be an implant, with an external plug, right?
09:03:44 <piecewise> Implant with a matrix like plug is probably best. we could go wireless but that leaves room for problems. wired connections are the most foolproof
09:04:01 <SeanMirrsen> I'm being hijacked by RL people, so quick questions. PW, can the HEP be made to fire continuously (as in, as fast as the generator supplies power, without charging) and if yes can the PEW make the beam as strong as the original HEP's but with a smaller area?
09:04:34 <piecewise> A single HEP? No. At least not how it is
09:04:33 <SeanMirrsen> And, I guess, wanted to ask if there's any word on the aero-Mk3 thing.
09:05:24 <piecewise> I dunno. Last thing I remember with the aero was the council saying I should break your kneecaps to set an example
09:05:30 <piecewise> I'm paraphrasing, of course. their actual response had a lot more swearing
09:04:55 <syvarris> Okay. Next question: How does the Protectorate suit compare to milnoplate, as far as protection?
09:06:12 <piecewise> Protectorate? Protectorate is pretty close to a battle suit
09:06:45 <syvarris> ...Why's it only cost about ten tokens, then? :\
09:06:55 <piecewise> Does it? Maybe I'm thinking something else. I lack my notes.
09:07:04 <syvarris> Says so on the wiki armory.
09:07:21 <piecewise> Then it's cause I was dumb at some point, probably. Also because I think, if I remember right, it requires stupid huge strength to use
09:08:07 <syvarris> Hmm. Does it use stronger materials than BS plate?
09:08:27 <piecewise> *shrug* I don't really remember a lot about it off hand to be honest
09:08:46 <syvarris> ...That kills a lot of my planned Tinker...
09:10:14 <piecewise> This is the problem with being on a pc with none of my notes. I'll be back home on monday though. we'll work on this some more
09:09:27 <syvarris> Give me a moment, gonna look up what you said about gram automanips.
09:11:53 <syvarris> You said "Price depends on a lot of things, but you could probably make them...Actually I don't know. Making them that tiny might actually be harder. " and an automanip that size would have an overload radius of 1.5 feet.
09:12:21 <syvarris> What would be the absolute cheapest overloadable space magic item, in terms of it's overload's average radius?
09:13:15 <piecewise> Probably a small microwave one, sy
09:13:43 <syvarris> ...Overload radius? Cost?
09:14:19 <piecewise> Smallest possible? I dunno, maybe 20 meters for a cost of 2 tokens. but the type of overload wouldn't be predictable
09:15:38 <syvarris> Hmm. That's interesting. Okay, what would be the cost of a automanip with an overload radius of six feet? Preferably, one that would actually irrevocably destroy everything in it's area of effect?
09:17:49 <piecewise> Problem is that amp overloads aren't predicable. Like, ever. What they do when overloaded is random. They might explode, spray shrapnel, blink out of existence, cause an explosion 30 feet away from themselves and then crumble into dust, etc
09:19:11 <syvarris> That last one is pretty interesting. Hmm. I had assumed they all generated a massive "FUCK EVERYTHING" field around them. Should I assume there's no way to make a one-shot automanip designed to destroy itself and everything within a short distance *reliably* /and/ for cheap?
09:28:10 <piecewise> Not through overloading.
09:28:32 <syvarris> @Piecewise Can I inspect how a grav shell works?
09:31:09 <piecewise> Sy: Grav shells are AM generated magic. Opening one will just shoot a black hole into your face
09:31:48 <syvarris> Aww. I'm guessing we can't mass-produce AM stuff? Or would we have to talk to her? Maybe we could replicate her process once we have the SMF up and running?
09:33:22 <piecewise> SY: that might work, with enough dead kids.
09:26:13 <SeanMirrsen> Re: HEP&PEW: okay, can the HEP be /made/ to fire continuously without completely reverse-engineering it into conventional physics? As in, can a science crew be set on figuring that out? And is the current PEW finished enough to make a prototype and give it to the mission people to see how many holes they can punch in that ancient spaceship you're planning to have?
09:33:04 <SeanMirrsen> As in, if the HEP normally charges for a minute and fires for a second, then continuous fire will be 1/60th of its regular power per second. Which the PEW could then scale up back to regular HEP power, but with the beam width of a laser.
09:34:00 <SeanMirrsen> I'm looking into a way to make the PEW not so horribly suited as a squad support main weapon. So that the shooter doesn't have to wait a minute between shots, but can choose to fire something weaker without switching to a different weapon.
09:34:28 <SeanMirrsen> (Because the PEW is ridiculously heavy as-is.)
09:34:22 <piecewise> Sean: I'm worried more about game balance then anything, since HEP's are powerful as fuck
09:43:03 <SeanMirrsen> In regards to balance: Suppose the PEW is given a secondary fire mode roughly equivalent to a cutting laser, without making it heavier. How much would it break balance?
09:36:00 <syvarris> @PW Umm. Next thing I want to work on is the anti-space magic rods that were on the ship. Do we have access to that tech?
09:38:21 <piecewise> Those rods are technically available to you but they're not healthy.
09:38:32 <syvarris> In what way?Again, how are the rods unhealthy? Slow insanity? How long do the effects take to have sever consequences?
09:43:13 <piecewise> the rods cause what you could call a meta-cancer. at least in most living things
09:44:16 <syvarris> @PW Is this cancer any worse than standard cancer which stasis probably causes?
09:44:38 <piecewise> it causes the reality that is you to slowly decompose
09:46:11 <syvarris> So... How bad would it be if we started gluing the things to specialty battlesuits? Would our pilots slowly die off over a few years, or would they just not be able to have a normal life aftwerwards?
09:46:44 <syvarris> Also, how about attaching the things to heavy robosods? Would we just be able to swap out the meta-cancered brain?
09:46:40 <piecewise> Ok, look at it like this. It's an anti-space magic field sort of thing, right?
09:47:18 <piecewise> Whats in the battery of a manipulator?
09:47:28 <syvarris> OHHHH.
09:47:38 <syvarris> So, no effect on sods because they don't have souls?
09:48:05 <piecewise> In essence, yes
09:48:25 <syvarris> Sweet. How much do they cost?
09:52:49 <piecewise> At this point I'm pretty close to just going full magic with them and telling you to sacrifice a player on an altar to get one.
09:53:23 <syvarris> What? Why? They'd just be sod equipment. And suicidal players, I guess. Does Grate count as a player? Does he have a soul, and does it respawn?
(...)
09:58:51 <piecewise> Has Pancake talked to the Doctor recently? If pancaek has talked to the doctor things should happen. Doctor should recognize another
10:02:40 <syvarris> So, PW, are you adamant that we can't abuse anti-space magic rods?
10:07:06 <piecewise> Sy: I might let you use them to guard AREAS, but not stick them on one person
10:20:52 <piecewise> Remember how KJ and Pera...someone sold their bodies?
10:21:19 <piecewise> I'm gonna just switch their brains
10:21:40 <syvarris> Do they swap physical stats?
10:21:43 <piecewise> Yes
10:21:49 <syvarris> But not mental?
10:21:52 <piecewise> nope
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Topic: Hephaestus OOC (Read 164357 times)