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[Nikitian]

That's constructive criticism you have there, it is only welcomed.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That nimble MK.III guy can be relatively easily swatted down though, and needs an expensive weapon to do serious damage- I highly doubt he'd be able to sharpshoot a battlesuit's joints while dodging return fire, so nothing below 10 tokens would work.  He's not gonna be much cheaper to field than the battlesuit, and he's far, far more fragile.

Well, yes, but I think about a three of them, armed with, say, regular PSLs, could efficiently dispatch isolated battlesuits one by one - encircling and distracting. And then there is a problem with the tokens: they don't translate well into the resource cost. From what I've gathered, they're actually following exponential curve or something; in no way two Avatars would cost the same as three battlesuits to make, and just as a battlesuit does not take about the same as four Mk IIs to make.
Actually, with that in mind, the increased cost to armor all of the legs properly could be pretty well absorbed or be around ~2 (1-3) extra tokens. In reality, that mouch would've been a huge resource increase, but law of resource per token conservation means that we on the Sword get the better end of the deal.

So, we can either put the minimum amount on (one BS plate), or the full amount (one BS plate, plus two full layers of HBHSSP (Hubsup plate?  Beetleplate?)).  The former would work for six legs, but it's still entirely possible for one perfectly aimed PSL shard to disable two or three legs on one side.  The latter would work for two legs, but it's still vulnerable at the joints, and therefore wouldn't be as good at sustaining massive amounts of small arms fire.

Now, if such a crippling shot is possible (though I suspect it'd require an overshoot or something), you have your point - though lining up three legs on one side is probably a bit of a hassle; and anything less and you can still move the battlesuit around the place. And now that we're up to this, I can totally see the merit of 'curl away the limbs' system. Definitely worth looking into.
Also, I didn't understand that the new armor can withstand a PSL shard. It certainly raises the bar for an 'AP weapon' definition.

Anyway, I don't think the VR is really a full MMI- it is, after all, just a headset and some gloves.  The important part of it is the suggestibility drugs you're injected with (which probably explain VR addiction).  After all, if it were that simple to interface with the body's system, Miyamoto would still have his legs.

I was speaking of the time when the VR helmet inserted electrodes (or whatever it was) directly into the brain - it allows the user to experience full range of feelings, including those lost to them bodily (which might serve as a good argument for botting brains - at the cost of potentially eating away your sense of reality, and who said that robot people were not already challenged with that?). That said, they can probably only affect the 'feelings' nerves and are unable to read thoughts; that is a big problem worth looking into.

Actually, maybe it's even worth having a science team look into proper easy to use mind-machine interface.

I do wonder sometimes what they'd do if the designated Avatar pilot was a brain-in-jar already - would they grow him a new body just to abuse all those nerve endings? And I think that Miyamoto has a far greater, finer, possibly intimate control of his Avatar - maybe even greater than an average roboperson has of his body - and for a battlesuit that might not be necessary. We already know that a person with implanted nerve terminal nodes can have a certain degree of freedom when operating as ghost in the machine; we know that robopeople can do whole tons of things just with their mind (including operating the on-board computer); and we know that VR users can do even more with just barely any input. This nut is on the verge of cracking.

Okay, but... why?  The PSL is capable of opening all five layers of a Battlesuit's armor with one shot, is semiautomatic, can volley fire, gets 7.5 times as many rounds to the token as an HGC, and is inefficiently large already;  It could likely be made cheaper, without losing any effect, since a smaller version could volley fire when it needs to have strong AP ability.

Was it capable..? I remember it having to shoot the battlesuit several times, possibly a volley, to crack through all layers of the battleplate. Maybe with an extremely lucky shot... Also, I find it really strange that one could get only three dumb basic metal slugs for a token. Maybe it has to do with magazine capacity - or maybe the law of RpTC means that for a couple more tokens we could get a fairly big magazine full of steel slugs.
But yeah, if we have that, and there honestly are not that many heavy armor-targets on an average given battlefield, I guess that we can do better than mindlessly scale the HGC up, even if it scales that well.

...Clark's actually inside the thing?  I assumed there was quantum entanglement involved.  In any case, it's probably either not nearly protective enough, or it's far too expensive to be practical.

Wait wait it's not a part of those shared hallucinations/weird shit? The mechanic squid suit is a real thing?

[Xantalos]

It seems the head of each department on the HMRC is a little ... unusual.

[Radio Controlled]

Primarily, right now I'm just rushing to get something out, because the missions are gonna be over soon.  This is why I crammed the sharksuit design in there too.

I'm gonna try sometime and see if we cannot make a different arrangement with pw for when shipments arrive. This system seems to lead to things getting rushed, and if you miss the deadline it's a rather long wait.

If you mean stuff like the improved generator/fuel/whatever tech, I've always assumed that stuff is just integrated into our equipment automatically.  I mean, if it's just a straight upgrade, why would we build anything that doesn't use it?

It might still be a good idea to specifically mention when we're using things like new exo/endoskeletons, to ensure we get whatever bonus those should give.

Quick suggestion for the beetle-suits, could you add in a pressurised water sprayer on one of the fingers in case the cams get obscured in some way?

As I mentioned once, sheets of clear plastic over the cameras that can be easily ripped off could protect against paint and such cheaply.

Gonna try to write my view on the battlesuit thing when I have some more time.

[syvarris]

@Nik

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, yes, but I think about a three of them, armed with, say, regular PSLs, could efficiently dispatch isolated battlesuits one by one - encircling and distracting.

Yep, they could, but they're still very vulnerable.  A battlesuit that's supported, either by infantry or other battlesuits, is more difficult to ambush like that though.  These people could pretty easily be shot down by laser rifles.

And then there is a problem with the tokens: they don't translate well into the resource cost. From what I've gathered, they're actually following exponential curve or something; in no way two Avatars would cost the same as three battlesuits to make, and just as a battlesuit does not take about the same as four Mk IIs to make.

Yeah, this is eternally a problem for me.  Tokens don't translate to resources, but we have no other measurement system to go by.  Any arguments about cost that don't directly involve inmate purchases can really only boil down to 'I feel this is how it is'.

Sorry for bringing up the cost of MK.III troopers with PSLs.


Anyway, you're probably right that an MK.III trooper with a PSL would be cheaper than a BS with a Spektr, and they're roughly equal as far as fighting each other.  This works as a pretty good reason to not have solely Battlesuits, I guess.

Now, if such a crippling shot is possible (though I suspect it'd require an overshoot or something), you have your point - though lining up three legs on one side is probably a bit of a hassle; and anything less and you can still move the battlesuit around the place. And now that we're up to this, I can totally see the merit of 'curl away the limbs' system. Definitely worth looking into.
Also, I didn't understand that the new armor can withstand a PSL shard. It certainly raises the bar for an 'AP weapon' definition.

Maybe I'm visualizing something different from you?  I'm imagining the legs being mounted basically in a row, so a well aimed shot could hit all three.  Although, if you designed the armor plates to deflect shots away, you'd probably only lose one leg, maybe two...  Hmm.

New armor's kinda annoying- hexbug is basically immune to kinetics, but only lasts a few seconds against lasers.  Hexsand is basically immune to pure energy, (including plasma!) but can't withstand a single round from a gauss rifle.  Basically, you could have five layers of beetleplate, and an enemy force armed with PSLs and Plasma projectors would be about as effective as a force with gauss and laser rifles--but the latter force would have a better chance, compared to the old battlesuit plate.  It's better, kinda.

I was speaking of the time when the VR helmet inserted electrodes (or whatever it was) directly into the brain - it allows the user to experience full range of feelings, including those lost to them bodily (which might serve as a good argument for botting brains - at the cost of potentially eating away your sense of reality, and who said that robot people were not already challenged with that?). That said, they can probably only affect the 'feelings' nerves and are unable to read thoughts; that is a big problem worth looking into.

Huh.  I always thought VR helmets never breached your skin, instead just using those sticky EM sensors.  I think people remove them too quickly and easily for there to be brain insertions.  Where did you read that any exist?

Actually, maybe it's even worth having a science team look into proper easy to use mind-machine interface.

I like this idea, and I haven't gotten any other suggestions for science crew assignments, so I think I'll do this.

I do wonder sometimes what they'd do if the designated Avatar pilot was a brain-in-jar already - would they grow him a new body just to abuse all those nerve endings? And I think that Miyamoto has a far greater, finer, possibly intimate control of his Avatar - maybe even greater than an average roboperson has of his body - and for a battlesuit that might not be necessary.

You think, but neither of us knows.  I've always thought Miyamoto had roughly equivalent control over his body as a standard synthperson; he's just able to leave the avatar and be a mostly normal human again, if he wants.  That seem like it might be important to "Generals and war heroes", not to mention the morale of it, which would justify the relatively minor inefficiency of not using a braincase system.

We already know that a person with implanted nerve terminal nodes can have a certain degree of freedom when operating as ghost in the machine; we know that robopeople can do whole tons of things just with their mind (including operating the on-board computer); and we know that VR users can do even more with just barely any input. This nut is on the verge of cracking.

Important section highlighted.  What do you mean by that?  From what I know, VR users require more input to do less than robobody people, and a lot of the stuff they do is abstracted or stock.  A VR person doesn't actully control their legs- they make their avatar go forward, and the VR machine uses canned animations to show what their legs are doing.

Was it capable..? I remember it having to shoot the battlesuit several times, possibly a volley, to crack through all layers of the battleplate. Maybe with an extremely lucky shot... Also, I find it really strange that one could get only three dumb basic metal slugs for a token. Maybe it has to do with magazine capacity - or maybe the law of RpTC means that for a couple more tokens we could get a fairly big magazine full of steel slugs.

Yep, it's capable, although only with a "really good, lucky shot"^[1].  Since we use a six sided die, that's proabably a lot more common than it sounds.  Not to mention, it's semiauto, and three "basically okay, standard shots" would kill a battlesuit too.

Note from the same post that a HGC only damages or smashes a single layer of armor.  There's AP rounds available, but they're even more expensive, and are probably still incapable on one-hitting a BS.

@Paris in main Hephaestus thread

Well... I can promise you we would definitely get around to it at some point, and it's very likely that we'd assign a science crew to it (especially if you reminded us!).  I'd like to promise more, but to be perfectly honest, I've been coming up with ideas faster than I've been going through them for basically the entire time I've been on Hephaestus.  There's still some incomplete projects that I've wanted to work on since before I joined the game itself.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yep, it's capable, although only with a "really good, lucky shot"^[1].  Since we use a six sided die, that's proabably a lot more common than it sounds.  Not to mention, it's semiauto, and three "basically okay, standard shots" would kill a battlesuit too.

Note from the same post that a HGC only damages or smashes a single layer of armor.  There's AP rounds available, but they're even more expensive, and are probably still incapable on one-hitting a BS.

And then there's the "overheating box of energy murder" (I like that description way too much ) that can potentially become an anti-battlesuit weapon for heavy infantry. Probably still not good competition to a PSL in overall effectiveness, but edges onto its turf by sheer power and lack of an ammo requirement.


Tangentially to the discussion on battlesuits, I was thinking about the MkIII-A suit. Anton will be making a prototype to send out for testing, but I'm not sure if he should use the new armor composites on that. (it would be sharkplate most likely, since it's the lightest)

Also, does anyone remember if regular synthoid muscles can be "overcharged" by applying more electrical power? Compared to the MkIII, the MkIII-A loses not only some of its speed and its ability to fly in airless environments, but also the EMM system. Since the MkIII-A carries a larger generator to power the fans, would something like a M.A.S.C. system be a possible addition? It'd add strength and dex bonuses, at the cost of being unable to fly at the same time, and the threat of breaking the suit's power assist entirely on a roll of 6+. Probably not a full +1 roll bonus, but a +5 stat bonus maybe, i.e. a +1/3 roll bonus?

[Parisbre56]

Hexsand is basically immune to pure energy, (including plasma!) but can't withstand a single round from a gauss rifle.

Actually, it's ultra effective against kinetic projectiles, but breaks more easily than battlesuit plate, meaning it's only going to be effective once. Now that I think about it, you could use plates of it to form some sort of Whipple shield for spaceships. Just got to compare its strength and cost effectiveness to hexbug, to see if there's any advantage to using one over the other. Or you could just use both.

Huh.  I always thought VR helmets never breached your skin, instead just using those sticky EM sensors.  I think people remove them too quickly and easily for there to be brain insertions.  Where did you read that any exist?

Jim connected himself to the VR so that he actually felt things via direct brain stimulation, but he was already a robot at that point. The VR essentially acted as a set of sensors for his robotic body and its already existing BMI, and could send signals for things like taste and feeling. After all, there are civilian robobodies that have the same capabilities as a normal human, including pain and taste. I'm not so sure if Feyri used it too though. So a BMI that doesn't require the user to lack a human body might not exist.

EDIT: But you could probably create one with some invasive surgery. Elysium style.

You think, but neither of us knows.  I've always thought Miyamoto had roughly equivalent control over his body as a standard synthperson; he's just able to leave the avatar and be a mostly normal human again, if he wants.  That seem like it might be important to "Generals and war heroes", not to mention the morale of it, which would justify the relatively minor inefficiency of not using a braincase system.

You've got to remember that the Avatar is living. It has an intelligence, it's just unable to influence Miyamoto greatly because the connection is mostly one way and monitored. If the Avatar's interface was damaged or if Miyamoto lowered its protection level, the avatar could overwhelm him if he ends up being weak willed. So Miyamoto is not only controlling the Avatar's body. He is exerting his will on it, forcing it to do what he wants. He is connected to it. So part of the Avatar's actions are actually the Avatar itself acting. That's why it might seem that they are more connected. Because the way they are connected is much different than the standard robobody.

Well... I can promise you we would definitely get around to it at some point, and it's very likely that we'd assign a science crew to it (especially if you reminded us!).  I'd like to promise more, but to be perfectly honest, I've been coming up with ideas faster than I've been going through them for basically the entire time I've been on Hephaestus.  There's still some incomplete projects that I've wanted to work on since before I joined the game itself.

Problem is I'm pretty sure science crews can't study Nyars artefacts.
But sure, I'll send it over and try my best to ensure it is researched. After all, if the current mission is any indication, next mission should last a while, so time will be available.

[syvarris]

@Sean

I was figuring that I'd design a Milnoplate-style armor after I'm done with with the beetlesuit and sharksuit.  Probably call it a badgersuit, to fit with the theme.

Mostly, it's just gonna be a direct rip from Milno's design, with hexsand and sharkplate over the areas that can't be armored with BS plate.  Hexbug is too heavy to be used, and IIRC a full suit of milnoplate's too heavy as well.  Hexsand, though, should be much lighter if it only needs to protect against lasers as well as BSP.

@Paris

You've got to remember that the Avatar is living. It has an intelligence, it's just unable to influence Miyamoto greatly because the connection is mostly one way and monitored. If the Avatar's interface was damaged or if Miyamoto lowered its protection level, the avatar could overwhelm him if he ends up being weak willed. So Miyamoto is not only controlling the Avatar's body. He is exerting his will on it, forcing it to do what he wants. He is connected to it. So part of the Avatar's actions are actually the Avatar itself acting. That's why it might seem that they are more connected. Because the way they are connected is much different than the standard robobody.

Why do you say that?  It's certainly a much more advanced and complicated setup, but he can't be directly connected to the avatar.  Humanflesh rejects Synthflesh, so there needs to be a technological intermediate between him and the Avatar.  Plus, the connections that come from his leg stubs are still coming from his brain- they just take a bit longer to get there (which explains why Avatars don't get neurophotonic spinal column rerolls).

Problem is I'm pretty sure science crews can't study Nyars artefacts.

That's... an issue.  Hmm.  Well, don't send it over if you can't come up with experiments to use on it- I might be able to come up with them, but an awful lot of artifacts are put off simply because I don't know what to do with them.

[Parisbre56]

@Artifact: Don't worry, I think I know what to do.

Anyway, we'll see how how it goes. There's no reason to worry about me. The suit and gun may be the only thing I've bought with tokens that is still in my possession beside my trusty monorazor and MK2, but my character has much more than that. He's a jack of all trades with crazy ideas and the determination to go through with them. He'll be fine. Plus, I'll soon have 15 tokens to spend, assuming Beirus doesn't die. If I wanted (I don't) I could just sell Gilgamesh for 20+ tokens and buy an AoW with tokens to spare. Which brings us to...

@AoW: I dunno. Space magic. I imagine being connected with a living, thinking body with an alien intelligence inhabiting it would be different than being connected with a normal robobody. Then again, synthbodies are made of the same material, so their connection might be the same, or at least close enough.

And sure, avatars don't get the reroll upgrade, but they get a frigging +1 to every roll due to the avatar's intelligence helping them. That's way better, like an onboard homicidal AI helping them do everything in the most extreme way possible. Although with the new system the reroll will probably become much more important than it currently is.

I wonder if piecewise will have weapon stats matter somehow, maybe act as an increase in skill level if used in the right range.

[Nikitian]

I imagine being connected with a living, thinking body with an alien intelligence inhabiting it would be different than being connected with a normal robobody. ... And sure, avatars don't get the reroll upgrade, but they get a frigging +1 to every roll due to the avatar's intelligence helping them. That's way better, like an onboard homicidal AI helping them do everything in the most extreme way possible.

This. Also, one of the reasons I considered adding a more common wetware AI to a Mk IV suit (if it could fit) - for a lesser, perhaps, but still a straight bonus to doing things.
The Avatar case be explained in two ways, both of them viable in my opinion. Either they have to force will upon their steed, as was already mentioned, and those nerve node connections are more than mere interfaces running along data - they somehow pass on the user's will (not as intent, but as the inexplicable power that allows us to resist mindfuck and do minor miracles), and that's why it is way more intensive and intricate than any other connection system (this is also supported by limited evidence of the ghostship mission where all participants were installed such nerve nodes). Or it could be that the body is purely better, more capable, more powerful in any ways imaginable, and just to control, to utilize its power more or less fully much more complex control system is required - sorta like in the Pacific Rim Jaegers, if I got their explanation correctly.

Jim connected himself to the VR so that he actually felt things via direct brain stimulation, but he was already a robot at that point. ... I'm not so sure if Feyri used it too though.

Actually, I recall Feyri being the first to try it, or at least participate as well. And one more thing - we must know of the helm-inserted electrodes because of a human user initiating that - as it is said, Jim already had sort of the same system in place, which just got input from the VR machines. Not to mention his brain being safely in a case in the middle of the chest, where nothing could've penetrated into it that easily.

Maybe I'm visualizing something different from you?  I'm imagining the legs being mounted basically in a row, so a well aimed shot could hit all three.

At the very least, they would probably have to be spread and splayed across to ensure the best stability - spider-style (except six, not eight - maybe); and then maybe the middle ones might better be placed slightly further out - so as to increase the spread, stability and ensure they cannot be all taken out by a single shot.

and we know that VR users can do even more with just barely any input.

Important section highlighted.  What do you mean by that?  From what I know, VR users require more input to do less than robobody people, and a lot of the stuff they do is abstracted or stock.  A VR person doesn't actully control their legs- they make their avatar go forward, and the VR machine uses canned animations to show what their legs are doing.

Yes, but I am fairly sure those 'canned animations' vary incredibly - I always thought that VR machines could simulate reality to about molecular level, and the user can do pretty much whatever he wants there, including moving his legs in just about any way imaginable (for human body, though, I'll give you that, and here is where we get back to 'canned animations'). Apart from discussed elsewhere ability to supply mostly untouched human brains with feelings and sensations, this is mostly the virtue of the VR machine simulation, that user is allowed to do pretty much anything (already conceived by the creators, but that's lifetimes and worlds of possible things nonetheless) he could in the world - and more, by playing with the simulation itself ('exploding' things to see what they are up close, creating, modifying and deleting whole interactable entities, and so on); all of that hinging on but the barest input from the user. Robot people probably cannot play worlds in their heads, as far as I know. But they can probably control their bodies better if the creators of the VRs didn't know much about those.
Of course, it may have a price - say, actually all the interaction is incredibly slowly but the user doesn't not feel so because of the drugs, but that seems unlikely. More likely it requires some very intensive amount of hardware to compute all that - and is still imperfect. But that imperfection, unless the user is Xan, has a Nyartifact or is looking for black-box research, is mostly unseen and doesn't come into play.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I imagine being connected with a living, thinking body with an alien intelligence inhabiting it would be different than being connected with a normal robobody. ... And sure, avatars don't get the reroll upgrade, but they get a frigging +1 to every roll due to the avatar's intelligence helping them. That's way better, like an onboard homicidal AI helping them do everything in the most extreme way possible.

This. Also, one of the reasons I considered adding a more common wetware AI to a Mk IV suit (if it could fit) - for a lesser, perhaps, but still a straight bonus to doing things.
The Avatar case be explained in two ways, both of them viable in my opinion. Either they have to force will upon their steed, as was already mentioned, and those nerve node connections are more than mere interfaces running along data - they somehow pass on the user's will (not as intent, but as the inexplicable power that allows us to resist mindfuck and do minor miracles), and that's why it is way more intensive and intricate than any other connection system (this is also supported by limited evidence of the ghostship mission where all participants were installed such nerve nodes). Or it could be that the body is purely better, more capable, more powerful in any ways imaginable, and just to control, to utilize its power more or less fully much more complex control system is required - sorta like in the Pacific Rim Jaegers, if I got their explanation correctly.

Jim connected himself to the VR so that he actually felt things via direct brain stimulation, but he was already a robot at that point. ... I'm not so sure if Feyri used it too though.

Actually, I recall Feyri being the first to try it, or at least participate as well. And one more thing - we must know of the helm-inserted electrodes because of a human user initiating that - as it is said, Jim already had sort of the same system in place, which just got input from the VR machines. Not to mention his brain being safely in a case in the middle of the chest, where nothing could've penetrated into it that easily.

Maybe I'm visualizing something different from you?  I'm imagining the legs being mounted basically in a row, so a well aimed shot could hit all three.

At the very least, they would probably have to be spread and splayed across to ensure the best stability - spider-style (except six, not eight - maybe); and then maybe the middle ones might better be placed slightly further out - so as to increase the spread, stability and ensure they cannot be all taken out by a single shot.

and we know that VR users can do even more with just barely any input.

Important section highlighted.  What do you mean by that?  From what I know, VR users require more input to do less than robobody people, and a lot of the stuff they do is abstracted or stock.  A VR person doesn't actully control their legs- they make their avatar go forward, and the VR machine uses canned animations to show what their legs are doing.

Yes, but I am fairly sure those 'canned animations' vary incredibly - I always thought that VR machines could simulate reality to about molecular level, and the user can do pretty much whatever he wants there, including moving his legs in just about any way imaginable (for human body, though, I'll give you that, and here is where we get back to 'canned animations'). Apart from discussed elsewhere ability to supply mostly untouched human brains with feelings and sensations, this is mostly the virtue of the VR machine simulation, that user is allowed to do pretty much anything (already conceived by the creators, but that's lifetimes and worlds of possible things nonetheless) he could in the world - and more, by playing with the simulation itself ('exploding' things to see what they are up close, creating, modifying and deleting whole interactable entities, and so on); all of that hinging on but the barest input from the user. Robot people probably cannot play worlds in their heads, as far as I know. But they can probably control their bodies better if the creators of the VRs didn't know much about those.
Of course, it may have a price - say, actually all the interaction is incredibly slowly but the user doesn't not feel so because of the drugs, but that seems unlikely. More likely it requires some very intensive amount of hardware to compute all that - and is still imperfect. But that imperfection, unless the user is Xan, has a Nyartifact or is looking for black-box research, is mostly unseen and doesn't come into play.

Anton's been developing a VR-based control method for remote bodies, by the way. He was hung up on automating movements when the connection cuts out, (and abandoned the project in favor of simpler drones) but otherwise he had the VR controls ready.

And VR is fairly limited. It's far from a molecular-level simulation, and can't be used to, i.e. simulate human brains - VR NPCs are just programs. It's also the reason some things are "black boxed" in VR - it can only simulate interactions between components for which the physical laws are known. It can simulate what happens to a laser beam going through a prism, but it can't say what happens inside an alien artifact or a manipulator - the smallest component it can simulate for those is the object itself, any physical effects it has are preprogrammed into the simulation.

Also, chemical interactions can probably be simulated insofar as you're putting together two "globs" of specific materials, and the rules of interaction for those materials are either known, or can be extrapolated because the chemical formulas for them are known, since chemistry has its own rules of how it works. It's not molecular-level simulation, it's just advanced interaction rules.

[Nikitian]

Also, chemical interactions can probably be simulated insofar as you're putting together two "globs" of specific materials, and the rules of interaction for those materials are either known, or can be extrapolated because the chemical formulas for them are known, since chemistry has its own rules of how it works. It's not molecular-level simulation, it's just advanced interaction rules.

Well, that's sort of 'atomic-level' simulation, if we take 'atom' at its original meaning of 'indivisible, elementary' and scale it maybe several times (likely orders of magnitude) the real atoms? I mean, as far as not delving into micro(subatomic)-level interactions and forces goes, it is probably a fairly accurate simulation.

[Radio Controlled]

Various stuff:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can confirm what paris said, that piloting the avatar isn't just controlling it, but also restraining it actively. The inhibitors aren't perfect. In a battlesuit, you just go "suit, do X" while in an avatar, it's more "suit, do X" while ignoring the avatar screaming "fuck X do Y KILL KILL KILL".

Another thing about braincases and avatars (and MMI's): remember that a human body can do stuff without the brain, through direct spinal cord signalling. In fact, a lot of things, like some reflexes, are controlled like that. Since braincases don't involve a spinal cord transplant (I think), those things have to be either simulated by the on board computer (which I can imagine isn't perfect) or aren't present (at least leading to, I suspect, slower reaction times in some situations). As such, there might be very good reasons to need a fleshy body human as a pilot (and also that crap about interacting with the Avatar entity, which might be easier/better with a full body for some reason).

I believe the primary issues with heat seeking missiles are that they have no IFF capability, and that missiles are in general pretty inefficient ammo.  If we could actually design a missile that reliably kills an MK.III on a bad roll, it'd be worth it, but if it needs a four or five we might as well just use a Spektr; Same aiming difficulty, and free ammo.

In reality, shooting and killing a Mk.III with a heat seeking missile should be easy. We have fire and forget systems in RL that require minimal training to use and are still deadly. Getting IFF might be possible by outfitting our suits to send a signal identifying friendlies, and adding electronics so our smart ammo doesn't target them.

Also, missiles are 'ineffective', but can you imagine actually hitting a small and fast target with a laser? Aiming is hard, yo, and missiles work really well. Indeed expensive in tokens, mind you, but that's because ours is an army where people have to buy their own weapons and ammo (a really ridiculous concept when waging war, heh). Comparing resources to (kill) utility I think they might still measure up.

After all, didn't Miyamoto just step right into Gilgamesh when he first got it?

I Always think stuff like learning how to pilot/control stuff is abstracted for ease. SO I'm not sure if this is correct from IC standpoint, but you are very right OOC'ly, I could just 'plug and play' with it.

Okay, but... why?  The PSL is capable of opening all five layers of a Battlesuit's armor with one shot, is semiautomatic, can volley fire, gets 7.5 times as many rounds to the token as an HGC, and is inefficiently large already;  It could likely be made cheaper, without losing any effect, since a smaller version could volley fire when it needs to have strong AP ability.
Seriously, I'm not obsessed with this gun because I like shiny crystals, I'm obsessed with it because it's more OP than anything I could ever make myself.

... I'm starting to think we should look into this again with pw. Seems PSL is indeed rather unbalanced right now (cheap ammo and good AP and volley fire and decent fire rate, all without some big disadvantage or risk to offset it).

Yeah, this is eternally a problem for me.  Tokens don't translate to resources, but we have no other measurement system to go by.  Any arguments about cost that don't directly involve inmate purchases can really only boil down to 'I feel this is how it is'.

I struggle with this as well. That, and the fact that we are designing with two very different target markets in mind (a regular army, and our little mercenary squad that has to buy everything itself, and works on d6 logic) makes this whole thing difficult sometimes.

New armor's kinda annoying- hexbug is basically immune to kinetics, but only lasts a few seconds against lasers.  Hexsand is basically immune to pure energy, (including plasma!) but can't withstand a single round from a gauss rifle.  Basically, you could have five layers of beetleplate, and an enemy force armed with PSLs and Plasma projectors would be about as effective as a force with gauss and laser rifles--but the latter force would have a better chance, compared to the old battlesuit plate.  It's better, kinda.

Yeah, it's different from 'beats everything equally to X degree'. But I think layering will solve this elegantly. I hope, or that project underperformed after all :/

I like this idea, and I haven't gotten any other suggestions for science crew assignments, so I think I'll do this.

I proposed having them investigate headless dued, but that can wait, Nik's idea is better.

I wonder if piecewise will have weapon stats matter somehow, maybe act as an increase in skill level if used in the right range.

That would require him keeping track of more stuff for every weapon roll. Yeah, gonna put my money on 'no' for this one.

Well, that's sort of 'atomic-level' simulation, if we take 'atom' at its original meaning of 'indivisible, elementary' and scale it maybe several times (likely orders of magnitude) the real atoms? I mean, as far as not delving into micro(subatomic)-level interactions and forces goes, it is probably a fairly accurate simulation.

I designed goop mixtures in VR, and the dissolvant. It could predict interactions, expansion rate, temp change and such very well.


Oh, and something we can add to the new Battlesuit: retractable wheels on the legs. PW has confirmed before those work good, give extra mobility in good terrain and aren't too expensive to add.

Also, I propose we name battlesuit 2,0 something like '(combat) hardsuit' or something. Pw has said bafore that battlesuits are more like hardsuits eitner way, so that might make communicating easier, and it's a descriptive name. 'Beetlesuit' gives me a different association, something with lots of legs and a hard shell.

Gonna try to do battlesuit design stuff later, when internet stops crapping out.

[Toaster]

@Toaster

...Clark's actually inside the thing?  I assumed there was quantum entanglement involved.  In any case, it's probably either not nearly protective enough, or it's far too expensive to be practical.

You know, I'm not sure.  Fair point.

[Nikitian]

On Sean's Mk III-A:
How about incorporating the improved exoskeleton? At best, it could decrease the cost even further (keeping the str/end bonus same).

Plus, how about using MCP-II instead of Mk II as base suit? It could work as a sort of 'WIP test MCP-III' while serving your intended purpose - and, hopefully, decrease the overall cost/token price even further. And then, if that's not much, you could also finalize the MCP-II (the schematics/design specifics are already out there, the only thing remaining is Piecewise's confirmation) and send a couple of those to the Sword along the MkIII-A and the rest of the shipment.

((Or, I could also finalize it myself... face the consequences... and allow the Heph team to use and ship the finished prototype. Of course, only if there is no other way and the Heph residents are out of actions and time for that. ))

[Sean Mirrsen]

1. Wing suit stuff is fine (though a way to extend and retract it might be prudent) but the ducted fans...I question their ability to function as you want. I'm no physicist, but from what I've seen with drones and that myth busters attempt to build something similar (as well as The Martin Jetpack) it seems like even extremely high efficiency ducted fans lack the force to keep a man aloft. At least, not without being stupidly huge. Even with the problem of a power source taken care of, it still seems to have definite problems.
2. Well, we can already overcharge robotic muscles. Jim, way back when, was offered a program to do it, but declined. Mostly because doing so is dangerous.

((The Martin Jetpack's prototype wasn't terribly stupidly huge.

That thing runs on regular fuel (200HP engine) instead of using electric ducted fans and futuristic compact reactors. Sure it won't be quite as slim as in my picture, but even with how poorly the tech would advance in the space-age, applying our usual "this is the future" discount should make something like it more than wearable.))

Any opinions on this? I do agree it pushes realism a bit, but the current developments in all-electric VTOL aircraft look pretty good. I.e.:

And this is with the current energy storage technology, which can't even make a working combat laser rifle. I think something like the Martin Jetpack, reduced to just the ducted fans with integrated brushless motors, mounted onto a powered exoskeleton that acts as both the frame and the control mechanism, powered by an inexhaustible nuclear generator the size of a shoebox, should be a pretty viable concept. Not a rocket pack in terms of speed and carrying capacity, but still workable.