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[Toaster]

On the turret kit:  Is the "5 tokens cost or less" requirement official?  It seems a bit artificial.  The 5 or less strength requirement makes perfect sense, but not the token one.

A quick glance at the armory list means this leaves out three items:

• Rocket Rifle
• Sibilus
• Cutting Laser

I'm not sure I see the problem with disallowing those, since otherwise the only allowed weapons are:

• Laser Rifle
• Gauss Rifle
• Tesla Arc, assuming it's at least vaguely gun shaped
• Crystalline Projector

Also, is the requirement because of supporting the weapon or because of recoil?  Because if it's the latter, why not allow use of it for single shots?  I'm looking at the fission instigator in particular...

[Sean Mirrsen]

On the turret kit:  Is the "5 tokens cost or less" requirement official?  It seems a bit artificial.  The 5 or less strength requirement makes perfect sense, but not the token one.

A quick glance at the armory list means this leaves out three items:

• Rocket Rifle
• Sibilus
• Cutting Laser

I'm not sure I see the problem with disallowing those, since otherwise the only allowed weapons are:

• Laser Rifle
• Gauss Rifle
• Tesla Arc, assuming it's at least vaguely gun shaped
• Crystalline Projector

Also, is the requirement because of supporting the weapon or because of recoil?  Because if it's the latter, why not allow use of it for single shots?  I'm looking at the fission instigator in particular...

Don't forget the Spektr (5 token, 5 STR), and the SS Testament (4 token, not sure what the STR requirement is).

[Harry Baldman]

Quick question about jump points - how big and what shape are they? Does anyone know? And how are they positioned in relation to a star system? Do they orbit the star, or are they more of a static fixture moving away from the center of the universe at about the same rate as nearby objects? Do they even have a physical shape?

I mean, it just occurred to me that if they're static in relation to the star, then actually planting traps near them would require constant acceleration to prevent any constructed objects from plummeting back toward the nearby star, wouldn't it? I might be getting orbital mechanics wrong here, of course.

[Radio Controlled]

Quick question about jump points - how big and what shape are they? Does anyone know? And how are they positioned in relation to a star system? Do they orbit the star, or are they more of a static fixture moving away from the center of the universe at about the same rate as nearby objects? Do they even have a physical shape?

I mean, it just occurred to me that if they're static in relation to the star, then actually planting traps near them would require constant acceleration to prevent any constructed objects from plummeting back toward the nearby star, wouldn't it? I might be getting orbital mechanics wrong here, of course.

Size and shape of a small planet, move around in an orbit around the star just outside the solar system (aka outside the last furthest planet).

Wiki is your friend: http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Hephaestus_Solar_System_Data

[Hapah]

On the turret kit:  Is the "5 tokens cost or less" requirement official?  It seems a bit artificial.  The 5 or less strength requirement makes perfect sense, but not the token one.

Oh yes, it's an artificial limitation. My reasoning is that if someone has a giant pewpew laser death cannon, they should at least have to show their face to use it. I was a little concerned about a scenario where people would elect to always have the kit on their gun, and set it on top of something/around a corner to fire their big guns without exposing themselves. There's certainly some flexibility on our end, though, if it turns into an issue.

Also, is the requirement because of supporting the weapon or because of recoil?  Because if it's the latter, why not allow use of it for single shots?  I'm looking at the fission instigator in particular...

A bit of both: large amount of recoil would be difficult to control, and weapons with extreme weight would be difficult to support or move with the limited strength of the kit.

[Harry Baldman]

Size and shape of a small planet, move around in an orbit around the star just outside the solar system (aka outside the last furthest planet).

Wiki is your friend: http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Hephaestus_Solar_System_Data

I did only skim that just now, but I didn't see any indication that they actually orbited. Good to know, in any case.

[Radio Controlled]

Size and shape of a small planet, move around in an orbit around the star just outside the solar system (aka outside the last furthest planet).

Wiki is your friend: http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Hephaestus_Solar_System_Data

I did only skim that just now, but I didn't see any indication that they actually orbited. Good to know, in any case.

I just doublechecked, and it seems the fact that it orbits (something I asked about a while ago) hasn't been added yet, only size and relative position. Good find, I'll add it for future reference.

[Toaster]

Re turret kit:  Ah.  I don't like artificial limits, but the gun squashing the mount and/or spinning hilariously backwards on discharge is a-okay.  The fission instigator has reasonable reason to be fired remotely, and no real issues if the recoil knocks it over.


Speaking of the F-I, has anyone taken one apart to see how it works?  Can it be scaled down?

[Hapah]

Re turret kit:  Ah.  I don't like artificial limits, but the gun squashing the mount and/or spinning hilariously backwards on discharge is a-okay. 

For the token limit, just trying to get out in front of the munchkins, you know? If you've got a better way, we're certainly open to feedback.

For the Strength req, there's nothing saying that someone couldn't try to mount a bigger gun with questionable results. We're just try to set the limits where the thing can be expected to work normally.

The fission instigator has reasonable reason to be fired remotely, and no real issues if the recoil knocks it over.

This has a pretty short-range transmitter and receiver, though. I don't know that it's the right tool for the job.

[syvarris]

A regular gauss rifle with grav shells can also do the trick, I seem to remember. Though those do sound very expensive, and I'm not sure what the price for a single one is.

Really?  Wiki doesn't name the cost, but it does say they're "only matched by nuclear rounds", and BSs are fully capable of tanking a nuke.  Anyway, I'd be really surprised if you coucil guys let the G-shell take out a BS, unless it costs ten tokens or something.  A two token gun shouldn't be able to kill a BS with specialty ammo, unless the ammo is super expensive.

A G-shell sized for a gauss cannon would probably work though, at least if it can be upsized.

A simple shoulder-fired rocket launcher (like the one we gave to our sods on Hep defense) loaded with AP (shaped charge?) seemed pretty effective though, and not too costly (but that was RU, it might be different for tokens).

I don't remember how effective rocket launchers were during the defense, but I was basing that statement on the shoulder-fired weapons Sean and I made back when we got accepted onto Heph.  We did both use 'expensive' methods in our rockets, since I used an automanip, and he used a pair of kinetic amps.  Still, even if you did just use conventional explosives or something, I doubt you'd get it down to five or six tokens.  If it costs seven or more, two rockets cost more than a PSL, and I don't see anyone ever buying something that expensive.

In relation to sods, these arguments might be moot- tokens don't always correlate to relative cost, so we might be able to 'afford' six rockets for the price of a PSL or something.  I just think that tokens make about as much sense as any other system for equipping sods.

Note that with the new roll system, this might not hold true any longer except for very skilled users.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that new system is really going anywhere.  It doesn't seem to come up often.

Regardless, space magic would still be a far better method of dealing with battlesuits.  Currently, the PSL is the only decent anti-BS weapon, and it's 13 tokens.  Amp users will get to the point that they can target inside of a battlesuit, or at least have the will to heat up the entire thing twenty degrees, long before a CON user could afford a PSL.

Create sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate. Have them activate when they don't recieve a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!

Interesting idea.  I doubt it would be a good idea, if only because it would take too long, but it's more likely to work than most other ideas.

Don't forget the Spektr (5 token, 5 STR), and the SS Testament (4 token, not sure what the STR requirement is).

Testament has a str requirement of 4, 8 if you use a PSL tank.  Come to think of it, that's kinda odd, since the weight comes primarily from the ammo tank, and the PSL's tank contains 4.5x the fluid, but... eh.

I did only skim that just now, but I didn't see any indication that they actually orbited. Good to know, in any case.

I do remember Radio asking about the orbital properties of jump points sometime in the past, but none of the posts that that wiki article links to mention it.  That would be a good post to find.

[Parisbre56]

Grav shells were described as costing "twice the cost of nuclear or more" by piecewise when I was contemplating buying a gausd cannon. And I think he gave a similar answer to someone who askee earlier. Ill search for the post tomorrow.

In my opinion they should be able to kill a battlesuit, since they act as a short lived spatial/gravity distortion that shreds things to pieces and pulls everything towards it.

Fun fact: piecewise also said that we could develop bigger variants for space combat when I was asking stuff about Hephaestus' defense. Imagine fitting the Hammer with those things.

[PyroDesu]

I have PW on record saying my plain high-EX grenade damages battlesuit armor, Syv. I take that to mean at least 1 layer breached or nearly so. A specialized load would be more effective - considering the armor's high heat resistance but somewhat ceramic-like ballistic properties, I bet you I could take a good chunk of at least 1 layer off with a HESH shell (depending on how the battlesuit armor layers are layered, possibly more). I also bet an EFP shell would break a layer, or a rocket shell (think like what the Sibilus uses, but bigger). And then there's kinamp, or even automanipulator shells, for those rich bastards who want to kill everything.

[syvarris]

@Paris

:\

I outright said that I think a grav shell sized for a gauss cannon would probably be able to take out a BS.  Also, looking at the wiki, G-shells cost 4 tokens for a mag of three, so they're cheaper than what you thought they were.  Interestingly, there's also "hellshot" which is five tokens for a mag of three.  Wonder what that is.

The problem is that for the GC, if you have even one spare magazine, it costs as much as or more than the PSL, but has far fewer shots available.  The PSL gets 7.5 shots to the token, each of which is capable of killing a BS.  The GC gets 0.75 G-shell shots to the token, each of which might be capable of killing a BS.  It's still a better option than anything else that we have, but it's barely cheaper than a PSL, and is quite inferior.


As for why the gauss rifle shouldn't be able to take out a BS with a G-shell: It's a two-token device, and the round can't cost more than one token considering the price for a GC sized G-shell.  That's three tokens, or two if you sell the magazine of normal ammo, and you can take out a BS in one shot.  I doubt there is any chance the coucil would allow that, and even if they did, there's the argument that it's risky if we start using them often, because the UWM would undoubtably copy it.

That would basically nullify heavy armor, and tilt our battles more towards attrition.  The UWM will undoubtably win in attrition, at least for the near future.


@Pyro

The operative word that I used was "significant".  I don't doubt that the Brisant could damage a BS's armor, but I doubt you can make something that will kill it in one shot, or even two.  I don't think any conventional AP grenade is going to obtain that power, considering that Sean's rocket used two kinetic amps, along with a large lump of conventional explosives.

Now, AM rounds might work, if you intentionally overload them.  An AM large enough to reliably kill a BS through normal operation won't fit inside the Brisant.  I have considered trying something like that, but only if nothing else works.

[Empiricist]

Also, is the requirement because of supporting the weapon or because of recoil?  Because if it's the latter, why not allow use of it for single shots?  I'm looking at the fission instigator in particular...

Supporting the actual weight of the weapon. I didn't even put that 5 token limit in the armory writeup I've given PW since "Can use weapons with a Strength requirement of 5 or less." pretty much overrides it anyway.

Think of the strength requirement less like an actual limit and more like another way of saying "this tripod and motor assembly has 5 strength", because that's basically what it is. I'd imagine that trying to mount anything too heavy would be the same as having a person trying to lift something too heavy.

As for the instigator. Well, if you need a turret to fire it for you, you're probably using it wrong.

[Radio Controlled]

Really?  Wiki doesn't name the cost, but it does say they're "only matched by nuclear rounds", and BSs are fully capable of tanking a nuke.  Anyway, I'd be really surprised if you coucil guys let the G-shell take out a BS, unless it costs ten tokens or something.  A two token gun shouldn't be able to kill a BS with specialty ammo, unless the ammo is super expensive.

A G-shell sized for a gauss cannon would probably work though, at least if it can be upsized.

Maybe it doesn't 'kill it' in one shot. But does it have to? If a good hit cripples the arms and legs, but leaves the pilot and central cockpit unscathed, that battlesuit is still out of the picture for the most part.

I don't remember how effective rocket launchers were during the defense, but I was basing that statement on the shoulder-fired weapons Sean and I made back when we got accepted onto Heph.  We did both use 'expensive' methods in our rockets, since I used an automanip, and he used a pair of kinetic amps.  Still, even if you did just use conventional explosives or something, I doubt you'd get it down to five or six tokens.  If it costs seven or more, two rockets cost more than a PSL, and I don't see anyone ever buying something that expensive.

Rocket launchers might be more versatile though (ground to air missiles, frag airburst for infantry, etc). But that's more of a concern for npc sods than us (since I doubt people will want to buy and carry around a lot of different ammo).

Still, maybe if we make something like this standard, it could benefit from economy of scale, driving down the price somewhat.

In relation to sods, these arguments might be moot- tokens don't always correlate to relative cost, so we might be able to 'afford' six rockets for the price of a PSL or something.  I just think that tokens make about as much sense as any other system for equipping sods.

Eh, I dunno. I do kinda make a difference in my head between 'IC resource cost' (important when equipping sods) and 'OOC token cost' (game balance being a major factor). If we make a billion gauss pistols for our sods, one is practically free, bur we'd still need to charge at least a token for one for player characters.

Regardless, space magic would still be a far better method of dealing with battlesuits.  Currently, the PSL is the only decent anti-BS weapon, and it's 13 tokens.  Amp users will get to the point that they can target inside of a battlesuit, or at least have the will to heat up the entire thing twenty degrees, long before a CON user could afford a PSL.

Even if that were true, we still need something for our sods. Also, I am not so sure if the PSL is the only decent option we have (how many shots does that need to kill one?). I'd investigate, but on mission and stuff. But yes, spess magic has an inherent leg up over guns in terms of bypassing armor.

Interesting idea.  I doubt it would be a good idea, if only because it would take too long, but it's more likely to work than most other ideas.

Just spitballing here really. And pw might not even allow us to use them, so uncertain all around.

Hmm. Another idea I had was to try and reproduce the brain melt powers of one of the artifacts we have into a short-lived short ranged version that's activated when the shell it sits in breaks (such as on impact on a suit after being fired). Idea would be to fry to pilot's brain while bypassing all the armor. But that depends on if such a thing can be made at all.



By the way syv, good job on that list for Hep stuff.

Unless somebody comes up with something better, I say we build another Biochemical forge, because you can never have too many sods.  The sci crew should research something from this list, probably either the "blueraditite" or orange goo.  Lastly, the spaceship construction stuff should build warships with a slot for the FTL AM, so that when we get the SMF working it has stuff to do.

I'd personally go for a dedicated Stevebot production plant first, we have none of those yet. As for research, yeah, let them work on the artifact backlog, that'll be good.

Maybe have the space construction ships upgrade jump point defenses? And upgrading fleshpits is also a good idea. Maybe the ground shipyard can build a bunch of 'sensor ships' which are basically small cloaked ships with good sensors and QEC comms, so we can put those in the systems around Hep as an early warning system of sorts.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that new system is really going anywhere.  It doesn't seem to come up often.

HEY PW, is that still a thing? I hope it is, after all the fuss we had about it.