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[Radio Controlled]

Yes! And it's those clerical errors, when they accumulate enough, that cause deaths of untold billions! And slight financial gain of unscrupulous quartermasters!

Seriously though, well, what a bummer. I kind of hoped it would also set precedent for how the non-token assets of team fund should get around. I mean, all the deceased people's stuff and various loot is just sitting there without any use whatsoever. Now, jeeps might get used in a mission eventually, med supplies should get around, but most of the stuff is just going to remain there as dead weight, it appears. And unless glorious revolutionaries start making last wills (that specify directly to whom their equipment goes, rather than donating it to the team fund once again), that pile of assorted stuff is just going to grow.

Also, I just totally remembered that the medical supplies pool should also be added to wiki. And then the pile of heads too. So, is the 'Team Fund' page really for team fund as described on the main page, or for all the funds and pools of the game as described on the page itself? So far, the prototypes pool tacitly coexisted with team fund, and look how much confusion it brought us. Probably high time for page contents reorganisation.

I've got so much scruples I had to get a massive robot to carry them all.


Ahem, anyways, I admit the exact use and rules of team fund/pools/whatever are vague right now. But I don't really think that's a problem? I mean, pw told me I can basically do whatever with that thing, as long as I keep it reasonable (aka not 'giving away tokens like candy'). I guess right now it's just a big ol' pool that's there for general helping of ARM (eg buying nyartifacts from troopers and shipping to Hep) and to help close the gap a little between new players and vets (there's a pretty big gap, so for certain missions newer characters really could use a little leg up (pw has said missions only get harder, so it might be needed so as not to downgrade those chars to glorified onlookers). It is also handy for buying consumables (eg medical supplies) because right now very few wanna buy that off their own money.

Also, med supplies would go to refilling all our emergency kits and stuff, remember?

I admit a more organised wiki page is a good idea, but I've been lazy on that front. I'm using pools page for prototypes as well because it is convenient.

As for the pool not really being used: I did use them on the cultist mission, and it came in handy. Also, we're probably wanna invest quite a bit on the joker team this time over.

And why would you buy from the pool? Simple, to keep more money in player economy, and because a person might need the funds from the pool sometime himself (though I admit a discount for items from dead people might be a good idea, but only like 1 or 2 tokens at most).

[Nikitian]

I must have misunderstood the team fund idea probably; thought of it rather as fulfilling one or other role of those listed on that page, but certainly not everything mashed together. I merely tried to mind the gap between, say, pile of heads or drugs and the newbie help token pool.

Also, cannot really see the team fund as part of 'player economy' unless it is somehow possible to access the funds. Does anyone actually get tokens out of it (except for newbie players, fair enough)? Or can one now borrow from there (I recall the discussion unfinished on that topic)?

But I agree that we should prepare for missions more extensively, even if it means drawing on the team fund in special cases. And at this point we might be better off inviting a financially-educated ER player to chart the most efficient approach to gaining tokens in our case. 

[Radio Controlled]

Yeah, it's basically 'Miyamoto's convenient pile of wealth for whatever he needs it' 

Well, Syv proposed to me that from now on, every time a player sells a standard item back to the armory for half price, the team fund buys it and sells it at half price, keeping items in circulation for less money. If pool starts to get drained, the pool sells stuff to the AM for same price. Same net worth, same amount of money in pool at all times, better for players.

[Xantalos]

Most efficient way is to just get Steve to hand out weapons to whoever - after all, the tokens are basically just a measure of how much firepower you're trusted with.

[Radio Controlled]

Indeed, but game/story segregation. There's quite a lot of that (eg why steve doesn't just use QEC controlled stevebots).

[Xantalos]

And that too.

[Nikitian]

Yeah, it's basically 'Miyamoto's convenient pile of wealth for whatever he needs it' 

Well, Syv proposed to me that from now on, every time a player sells a standard item back to the armory for half price, the team fund buys it and sells it at half price, keeping items in circulation for less money. If pool starts to get drained, the pool sells stuff to the AM for same price. Same net worth, same amount of money in pool at all times, better for players.

Ah, that's actually a very good idea. Slightly troubled now that we are phasing some of the older equipment out of use, but nonetheless.

[PyroDesu]

Okay, this is getting out of hand (my not posting). So damnit, I'm going to post if it kills me, see if I can get back into the groove. Need a bit of help, though. Can someone update me (again) on whatever's gone on since I proposed the new system (which, by the Wiki, you guys have implemented)? OOC discussions included. No walls of text, just enough to get me up to speed.

And for the love of god, if anything needs my attention, PM me. That is the one most reliable way to get my attention.

[Nikitian]

Nothing has gone on , to my knowledge, since you called that staff meeting IC. Well, there was this one matter (handing stasised Xan over to the Sword) where Heph guys had to act as though the reorganisation has already occurred for the sake of expedience, and I posted that Maurice's message to Simus (the one from before) as a response to her 'invitation' before going off to the Doctor (still unresolved due to Piecewise's sabbatical).

[Xantalos]

Oh, and we finally transitioned over to the new rolling system! This merits a hurrah.

[syvarris]

@Radio mentioning my TF ideas.

I believe I also suggested that we mimic what Kri did with his Mk.III; rent out all team fund equipment for as cheap as PW lets us.  People don't often outright lose equipment, so it probably wouldn't lose money, and it would produce a steady-ish stream of tokenflow.  Also, it would allow new players to actually matter on mission, because a rented MK.III or Raduga can mean a lot.

Another, obvious idea, would be to loan tokens.  Borrow two tokens immediately, have three deducted from your next mission's pay.  It benefits players (especially newbies) because being able to afford high-tier equipment right off rather than buying and later selling lower tier stuff is more efficient, and it benefits the fund because it's a gain in tokens.

If you actually took me seriously, then a good place to start would be with Commander P.  He's asking the armory to do something weird: buy his rifle, and later resell it to him.  That's unorthodox for the AM, but perfectly fine for the Team Fund.

Of course, maybe people shouldn't listen to me; another idea I had would be to design and ship a vent-dwelling battlesuit scorpion to the Sword, which would serve as teller, guard, and vault.  ^{_{Mostly, I want to have a giant metal scorpion crawl out of the vents to greet newbies with "Limited time offer!  Get 50% less interest on your next loan, as long as it is taken before your first mission!  Lower your chance of death by 95%*!  Act now and recieve complementary gender-appropriate underwear!"
*Percentage may not be accurate.  No refunds.  In the event of your lasting death, all equipment will be confiscated.}}

[Radio Controlled]

You suggested a lot of things, yes. But I don't think I wanna bother with all of them, at least not for the moment. The thing I'd be most interested in setting up would be the loans, but that's probably not gonna be for right now. Unless therre's someone who would like to borrow right now? And what does the rest of you think? Should team fund actively try to make money wherever it can?

[Nikitian]

Huhhh... I don't really know. On one hand, borrowing is really beneficial; on another, loaning money with any interest whatsoever is evil, no matter how one is to paint it. (Yes, I know it is only reasonable and all that; doesn't change the attitude for me, unfortunately. Necessary evil, perhaps, but... - err, who let Maurice speak instead of me once again?)
So - could there perhaps be another way where team fund could loan tokens without charging any interest, and also gain tokens over time? I do not know. ...Then again, what if we worked it in reverse as well? So that characters that have any excess of tokens could deposit them in the team fund where other teammates could borrow - and then return, and then maybe also deposit - all without any interest whatsoever, neither for deposit nor for credit? It is kinda working this way already between players, but on a much lower scale and in a very decentralised way.
And then if anything happens the fund could always gain tokens by selling the equipment of deceased teammates. It's not like many people make last wills in our 'line of work', right?.. 

Also, I just understood that if this is not the approach team fund leadership takes and actually on the opposite, I am probably willing to try and create a parallel 'Revolutionary Fund' with that aim in mind. At the very least to try and create a separatist 'non-Miyamoto's inconvenient pile of stuff'.

[syvarris]

loaning money with any interest whatsoever is evil, no matter how one is to paint it.

Wait, what?  You said Maurice was talking there, and not you, but I'm not sure if I should take that seriously.

If you want an explanation of where it's not evil, here:  Say we have a newbie specialised in CON.  They get five tokens to start, and might buy, say, a sharksuit as armor and a laser rifle as a weapon.

BUT, we could offer them a loan; they get four extra tokens now, in exchange for five tokens being deducted from their next paycheck.  Now, they can buy a Spectr (five tokens), the armor (3), and perhaps a handful of grenades, or a pill, or even something rented from the TF, like an MCP.III (1).  They have a better chance of performing well on-mission, due to better equipment, and therefore will probably make more than they otherwise would, offsetting the slight interest they have to pay.  Plus, they won't have to waste a token later, by selling the lasrifle and replacing it with a Spectr.

could there perhaps be another way where team fund could loan tokens without charging any interest, and also gain tokens over time?

Well, sure, Two've been mentioned already.  First one is buying anything that's sold for 50%, and then reselling it to players at something like 75%; still a discount for them, still a gain for the TF.

There's also the renting idea, which gains money at no risk, at least most of the time.

So that characters that have any excess of tokens could deposit them in the team fund where other teammates could borrow - and then return, and then maybe also deposit - all without any interest whatsoever, neither for deposit nor for credit?

The problem with this is that whether it's voluntarily relinquishing control of tokens, or using all free tokens currently available, it isn't sustainable.

The former relies entirely upon goodwill and selflessness, which I frankly have no faith in and therefore believe it can't work.

The latter is... well, literal communism, which has been proven to fail plenty of times.  To be more exact though, it'd fail because people wouldn't be able to always get their tokens back when they wanted them, and because people would probably over-buy more than their share.  Fights and arguments would break out over whether or not buying a high-price gun over a low-price gun is more efficient, and that isn't good.  Plus, not everyone would like to relinquish control over their own tokens, even if it somehow worked well.

And then if anything happens the fund could always gain tokens by selling the equipment of deceased teammates. It's not like many people make last wills in our 'line of work', right?..

Yeah, that can work to keep the TF running, if Radio continues with his minimum-spending policy.  It just means that newbies'll continue to be overshadowed by vets, and the rich will continue to have the majority of wealth because they're the competent, well-equipped ones capable of getting wealth in the first place.

Also, I just understood that if this is not the approach team fund leadership takes and actually on the opposite, I am probably willing to try and create a parallel 'Revolutionary Fund' with that aim in mind. At the very least to try and create a separatist 'non-Miyamoto's inconvenient pile of stuff'.

Funny, my original plan with that money Hapah gave me was to start a bank of Hephaestus, to make money for Hephaestus interests.  Radio convinced me that it was redundant with the Team Fund, which's why I donated to it.

Is it ironic that you're Russian and I'm American?  I'm not quite sure.

[PyroDesu]

Wait a second. I'm reading through some of the latest on-ship thread here, and seeing a thread between Miyamoto and Flint about him coming to Hephaestus.

Simus isn't solely in charge anymore, really, but did anyone, at all, contact the Hephaestus administration about it, and I perchance not see it? Because while I may not have 100% absolute power anymore, I'd still be very, very wary of agreeing to let people on Hephaestus we don't have a role or need for, and the administrators should have the power to allow or deny entry.