I meant that asa courtesy, and did so because we have been able to discuss things in the past like this, and I felt that we could clear this up without more than a couple pms. It was, I think, partly because I recognized that I was reacting against your summary of the project, and you had made a disclaimer concerning that. I wish you would have responded there before here, rather than brought what I said there to here.
Yeeeah, that was pretty bad of me. At the time I was trying to make you look bad, so I copied the PM and argued against it publically to... well, do that. Ironically, it probably did the opposite if anything, but I'm not a very skilled planner when fighting.
Anyway, this word is starting to lose value due to overuse, but Sorry.
you established a plan of action for how m26 was to make use of the colony project. this was the conflation of power I was addressing. Well, that and how Saint uses his Heph power to lock out information and act independently, and with fundamentally different methods and attitudes than all of the BLOPS team. A part of what made the M23 team effective, and why we got this assignment, was because we meshed as a team. and Saint ... Saint sees everyone on M26 like - well you say it below, at least in regards to Dester.
Three bits here:
The first sentence is kinda ambiuguous, and I'm not sure what you mean by it. I hadn't intended to force a plan of action, at least.
The second sentence is sorta correct, but I have never considered it an abuse of Admin power. Like, the hiding of the "kill scientists who know how two different EUE designs work" was something Saint would've done even if he were a bottom-rank operative. IC, it doesn't make sense to mention that--it shows a callousness that alienates people, it's a very long-term plan which isn't even related to M26, and it is possibly completely impossible, depending on too many variables to be a concrete plan.
The only other information I remember deliberately concealing was when I concealed my experiments with the memetic melter anomaly. That was using admin powers, but doesn't strike me as abuse as it didn't impact anyone else's gameplay.
The last sentence refers to some description I applied to Dester, but which I don't remember and can't find. If I said Saint thinks Dester's an idiot or something, that was a lie. If you're referring to what Saint said to Miya, it's basically just Saint criticizing people for having empathy--he believes empathy is nothing but a weakness--and partially for them not being complete pessimists. He actually respects Dester significantly, due to Dester's great success on M23, though Saint's respect for other BLOPs members varies widely. Notably, he thinks the guy with -2 mind (Gus?) should be shot.
a) I was unaware - and this is again a result of the "cliqueshness" of tinker - a word that you introduced into the conversation, and I merely parroted.
Soooo I just googled "define:clique", and here's what I got: "a small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together
and do not readily allow others to join them".
Welp, that last bolded bit explains why you thought we were being exclusive. My intended meaning was identical, except without that part--we like it when new people join us. Sorry for using words that I don't understand; I'm evidently very good at sowing confusion even when I'm trying to spread understanding.
it was that choice of words, combined with Saint's general ideals, your tendency to be very meticulous in your actions, but very noncommunicative of those actions, that raised red flags for me. If R_C did order the use of the colonies, if ARM did, or if Steve did, Dester'd shrug it off and get on with life. He'll do the same with this. But he, or at least I, am allowed to be a bit miffed by it. People usually are a bit miffed by ham handed authoritarianism, and Dester would consider ARM's use of it rather hypocritical, given a) Steve's rather lackadaisical attitude toward the Characters' actions, and b) the fact that this approach is essentially the core of the UWM attitude that Steve has so carefully fought against for a millenium, in order to prepare to fight our larger enemies.
Yeah, I was writing very poorly. I've been tired more often than not, lately, and it shows.
You do, and did, have the right to be miffed. My response was saying you were more angry than justified, as I had interpreted a lot of what you said as personal attacks. I had felt you weren't appreciative of anything nice which I had done, and then started sending personal attacks because I had made a couple accidentally misleading statements. This is why I was characterizing you as a whiny brat.
And no, I'm not trying to defend how I responded--Like I said at the top of this post, I wasn't justified at all. Honestly, my reaction was worse than even what I
perceived your reaction to be; between Darth Ozark and Real syvarris, the latter is the whinier brat. >.>
to be honest, I expected we'd be required a more hands on approach, with the entire team, or at least a significant part of it, needing to physically enter each universe and return. I expected the universes to have been selected in abstract so that only those with the potential to be human hospitable would be available to us (PW said before we started that the EUE would "probably" not telefrag us on entry - so I assumed a certain amount of prepreparation and preselection)
Yeah, I had expected that too. I imagine PW did three, and M26 just fell to the same trap as Hephaestus: "If we have infinite resources, why are we touching the alien murder anomalies
personally rather than having a robot on another planet do it?". Probably for the same reason too--I'm in the thread.
I and several others in M26 have sent materials and personnel over to other universes in an attempt to develop colonies within the mission. Several times those actions went ignored in thread by the GM. I chalked that up to abstraction, and would have been happy leaving it at that. But yes, in the m26 thread, in three different universes so far, we have built colonies. that PW went to another thread, not known for being visited by most of our team, to hand that aspect of our mission off to you guys, without a heads up to the team such as "hey, I'm sending colony construction to tinker and letting that gang work out step six of m26's plan" was unknown to me.
I highly doubt PW intentionally ignored your comments on colony development. He does miss a lot of stuff sometimes. Radio was probably just more vigorous in bringing up his interest, so PW let him handle it because he thought Radio was the only one interested in the topic.
I kinda have to wonder though... if you're fine with the details of the colonies being entirely abstract, why does it bug you if someone else defines the backround details instead? Theoretically, neither option is any different for you. Were you irritated because you perceived PW to let Radio develop colonies, while not allowing you to do so? Therefore showing a preference to Radio, and being discriminatory towards you?
Saint is a malicious and manipulative sociopath, by your own admission. and you yourself claim that he plays the way he does because you like it. tht said, I did not, and do not, make the claim that you acted maliciously. Only that your actions override our team's role in hunting down universes, developing a plan of attack, and preparing colonies and how those colonies will be used. You've addressed this to an extent. My complaint needed to be made, though. this needed to be aired, whatever the outcome.
It had seemed to me like you were implying I was acting maliciously, and even if not, stating that you were suited me fine.
In any case, I don't believe anyone ever intended to override the BLOP's team's role. Radio and I discussed the colonies because it was something which we didn't see being done already, and we figured it would be fun and helpful to do it ourselves. We weren't intending to steal the job or anything, and we didn't intend to force you to use our ideas. I, at least, honestly believed you would be completely ambivalent.
no, but you've carried much of the baggage from the nonfunctional situation over. The reason, as I understand it, that certain characters were given theauthority they were was because that authority didn't directly affect the other teams. Now it does, but you still have that authority. that authority was designed to be used over npcs and abstracted development of weaponry and armor and equipment, and has since evolved. Did you ever intend for Saint to be a commanding officer, in charge of player teams and carrying the authority of ARM as a General? I am curious here, because that strikes me as a completely different role than that which I think you intended - but like you, I am no mind reader.
Authority: Adminship is a really weird thing, that evolved over time. Technically, we started with Pyrodesu (played Simus) as the only admin, and he had authority over all the other tinkerers assigned to Heph. Then we eventually moved to the equality system, where every Heph player became an admin, and had equal standing. The reasoning for the change escapes me at the moment, I think it was because Pyro had too much work. Throughout that, we played with the idea of letting other players become assistants on Heph, who would petition to an admin and be considered that admin's subordinate. We never went through with it, because Heph ran too slowly, but pretty much everyone liked the idea IIRC.
So, yes, adminship has always granted authority over other players, albeit only players who chose to join and become subordinate. Personally, even when I was a subordinate, I didn't feel this was a bad thing--nobody ever seemed to
abuse the authority, and it made for some interesting RP. Throughout M26, I've been trying to use Saint's adminship as a vessel for interesting RP, which is why I've consistently maintained that he's outside of/adjacent to the BLOPs power structure, rather than above it. I feel like it makes for interesting roleplaying. If you feel like it's unpleasant, or that I'm doing a bad job, we can change it, though I would personally be disappointed.
Saint's intention: Saint's a funny character, and for all my mistakes when playing him, he's the first char that I've RPed well enough for him to be his own character. I initially came up with him because I was inspired by Thearpox and Xantalos. Thearpox (I miss that guy! He was awesome!) played a manipulative spy, and I felt I could do a better job. Xantalos played Xan, when he was still a fleshwarper, and I felt his shapeshifting powers were underutilized. Saint was originally supposed to be a shapeshifting compulsive liar who manipulated everyone around him for personal gain.
I quickly realized I'd feel guilty if I actually played him like that, so Saint ended up rather ineffective as a manipulator. He died twice very early on, and I ended up developing a significant interest in Tinker, so I let his secondary character trait take over--his AUX specialization. He was AUX specialized because AUX is completely OP and I'm a munchkin. After that, he started evolving more towards caution and safety, which is basically the complete opposite of how he started.
So, uh, that went off on a tangent. To answer your question, yes, it would very much have been in line with Saint's character to become an officer. He'd have been a terrible,
terrible officer, but if he could have manipulated his way into that role, he would've gleefully jumped at the chance. Even after his deaths, when he became more cautious, he would have happily accepted power over others. Of course, both of those statements are because
I would've enjoyed it, but it's not like I haven't repeatedly stated that I'm a poor roleplayer.
I think this is an exaggeration of my reaction. yes, there was some heat in my words, but I don't believe I went that far. I want you to note a couple things here though. 1) you have called this my "pet" mission. It is the only mission I have been involved with for four months. And I have one mission before that, which lasted about five and a half months or so. Missions used to last a fraction of that, and the game was much wider for most people than a single mission. For myself, Dester hasn't even gotten to return to the Sword since he set out. This mission is pretty much the game for me. Especially since the game is ending and I won't be able to participate in more missions. get that? When I joined I expected - well, a lot of things that turned out way differently than they did.
I understand. Don't worry about the "pet mission" statement; it was meant to imply you were controlling M23 unfairly, and treating your own enjoyment of it as more important than others. Essentially flipping your complaints back on you. Just more of me deliberately being a prick.
I've made three posts and one pm, and only in this one relied much on quotes. What did I do that's so rough that you put me into such an exclusive club?
I dunno, man. I think I spent less than two hours on that post, and that time was lengthened because I wrote it on my phone. I used to spend upwards of four hours writing walls of insulting, taunting text--the biggest argument I ever had with GWG probably had fifteen hours put into it total before I got bored (It was about whether a door should have been opened, IIRC). Maybe I'm starting to enjoy it less? Maybe it just bugs me more to do it to you? I don't know, but you and GreatWyrmGold are the only people that made me lose interest in taunting them
while I was in the process of writing a taunting post.
If we are at a point where the BlOps team is no longer necessary for the functioning of this mission, then the mission should be ended
We're either not there now, or we started there, depending on your definition of "necessary". No, M26 isn't done, and someone needs to do the remaining work. No, BLOPs never needed to be that someone--but they're an okay choice for being that someone. They still are, it's just BLOPs plus a few, now.
the issue is, either some group of player characters need to be directly active in this with a low level of abstraction and actual individual actions made by individual team members, or can the whole thing be automated and abstracted? Not "were these specific people each specifically called by the gods for this purpose?" if no player character need act, then the mission is over and can be automated.
I'm pretty sure the literal answer to that question is "Sure it can be automated, but that'd be less fun!". If people aren't enjoying the mission, like in M25, it'll be dropped and automated. If they
are enjoying the mission (as I thought people were), then they'll keep playing and enjoying it.
I'm not really sure how the question is relevant. The colony project was lowering abstraction, not increasing it. Previously, colonies were very nebulously defined. Are you saying you dislike how the colonies were developed OOC, and then the corresponding IC development was handwaved, meaning people weren't really playing the... no, that doesn't really make sense either?
syvarris is confused!
It hurt itself in its confusion! A critical hit!
syvarris has fainted!
Author
Topic: Hephaestus OOC (Read 167343 times)