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[Niddhoger]

Personally I think there are far too many magma safe materials anyway. It is not really about realism, it just should not be that easy to stop magma, and glass should not be enough.

Our typically soda-bottle glass will definitely not stand up to magma (they can't stand up to a pocket lighter!) But its not hard to make heat resistant glass that can withstand all but the hottest of magmas.  In fact, industrial grade glass is often used in crucibles and furnaces.  Your beaker never melted or cracked over your bunsen-burner in Chemistry, did it? Now, magma is liquid rock and thus extremely dense.  So even if you made some industrial grade glass capable of withstanding the heat, I'm not sure it could support the weight. 
Asbestos has melting points typically in line with the industrial grade glass, actually.  Chyrsotile has a melting point at 1500*C (the upper limit of Fused Silica/Industrial glass).  Most magma falls within the range of 700-1300*C, actually.  Very rarely do you find some as "cool" as 600*C or as hot as 1600*C. 

Now I don't feel like doing the degrees Urist translation, so things could be different in DF. (for heat value of magma)

[GavJ]

Personally I think there are far too many magma safe materials anyway. It is not really about realism, it just should not be that easy to stop magma, and glass should not be enough.

Our typically soda-bottle glass will definitely not stand up to magma (they can't stand up to a pocket lighter!) But its not hard to make heat resistant glass that can withstand all but the hottest of magmas.  In fact, industrial grade glass is often used in crucibles and furnaces.  Your beaker never melted or cracked over your bunsen-burner in Chemistry, did it? Now, magma is liquid rock and thus extremely dense.  So even if you made some industrial grade glass capable of withstanding the heat, I'm not sure it could support the weight. 
Asbestos has melting points typically in line with the industrial grade glass, actually.  Chyrsotile has a melting point at 1500*C (the upper limit of Fused Silica/Industrial glass).  Most magma falls within the range of 700-1300*C, actually.  Very rarely do you find some as "cool" as 600*C or as hot as 1600*C. 

Now I don't feel like doing the degrees Urist translation, so things could be different in DF. (for heat value of magma)

This is a great theory, except that dwarves use magma to soften and form their glass in the first place... so this theory is not one that you can logically foist onto the game as explanatory fanfic.

Dwarves CERTAINLY would have the technology to make higher melting temperature glass. It's actually super easy. Humans had that technology too, it is inherently known technology prior to making soda lime glass. Why? Because the only reason for adding soda to glass is specifically to lower its melting temperature to be within range of realistic furnaces of the time. If you want higher melting glass, it's SIMPLER to make -- just go melt some beach sand (at 1700 celsius or so!). Or if you want in between, you simply put in less soda than you normally would.

However, all of this implies that in game, it should/would require in game a separate type of glass that could not be created at a magma glass furnace, because by definition it wouldn't be hot enough.

Same goes for any metals you want to say are magma safe. They necessarily imply being forged at special furnaces that can achieve hotter than magma temperatures.



Asbestos is unique in that regard in that you can form it without melting it. But it would still be useless in magma. Even if it doesn't quite literally melt, it will be extraordinarily weak and break. The same issue you would run into with things like steel (loses ~half its strength at even just 600 celsius! And in magma would be at like 1% normal strength and get crushed out of whatever shape it held, effectively ruining anything, and making pumps impossible, etc.)

[Niddhoger]

The same is true for a traditional smelter- coal won't typically burn half as hot as the magma and should be even worse for smelting.  I am assuming that magma forges don't simply pour magma directly over the ores.  As you said, this would make them suck (the important metals are magma-safe, afterall).  Instead, the magma smelters likely have bellows, tubing, and all what have you to concentrate the heat that the magma is giving off. 

I only brought this up because you mentioned glass shouldn't be magma safe.  Green glass, however, is made with no additives.  Its just sand scooped up and tossed in the smelter.  This is basically fused-silica glass and has a melting point within 1000-1500*C depending on its purity.  However, clear and crystal glass require pearlash.  This is actually soda-lime and would result in the more familiar glass types we use everyday.  These wouldn't even be fire safe, really.  That is unless Toady has magma at something like 2000*C.  Again, I don't feel like working out a conversion. 

Yeah... if anything we need a rework of constructions.  Soap walls shouldn't be able to resist goblins, let alone a spring rain.  Things that could theoretically resist the heat of magma wouldn't support its weight, etc.  Single supports made of wood can hold up thousands of tile's worth of stone....from the side. While we have (basic) temperature and basic fluid dynamics, Toady hasn't begun to code in load-bearing weights yet alone durability of items (outside of armor). 

[Vattic]

None of the other minerals are called by their archaic names (AFAIK), so why start now?

Sulfur is called brimstone. Uraninite is called pitchblende.

[Bumber]

I only brought this up because you mentioned glass shouldn't be magma safe.  Green glass, however, is made with no additives.  Its just sand scooped up and tossed in the smelter.  This is basically fused-silica glass and has a melting point within 1000-1500*C depending on its purity.  However, clear and crystal glass require pearlash.  This is actually soda-lime and would result in the more familiar glass types we use everyday.  These wouldn't even be fire safe, really.  That is unless Toady has magma at something like 2000*C.  Again, I don't feel like working out a conversion.

It's right on the wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Magma#Properties_of_magma
12000 °U [1111.1°C (2032°F)]

[Niddhoger]

It's right on the wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Magma#Properties_of_magma
12000 °U [1111.1°C (2032°F)]
[/quote]


Derp, was too late when I first posted this.  Was reading 2000*C instead of 2000*F.   Fused silica is supposed to melt between 1000-1500*C depending on purity... DF magma falls at the low end of that.  All asbestos-minerals would be higher than that as well. 

[Bumber]

Well I'll be damned... never noticed that.  So no glass in DF should be magma-safe (nor asbestos for that matter), but only because magma is far hotter in DF than it should be in RL.

Somehow the melting temperature for all DF glass happens to be 2000°C.

Should still be safe though: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/SaiLee.shtml
All the reported values there are > 1400°C to soften glass to the point where it can be worked with. Should be sturdy enough at 1111°C

[Urist Tilaturist]

It's right on the wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Magma#Properties_of_magma
12000 °U [1111.1°C (2032°F)]

Well I'll be damned... never noticed that.  So no glass in DF should be magma-safe (nor asbestos for that matter), but only because magma is far hotter in DF than it should be in RL.
[/quote]

Decreasing magma temperature would be a good idea in that case. It would still be hot enough to kill dwarves.

[GavJ]

Nah, if you pretend that the depth of the DF diggable world = the earth's crust, then 2032 is perfectly reasonable for a normal magma for the average depth of the map which would correspond to about 20 miles underground. Stuff is hotter there.

[BoredVirulence]

I like this idea.
As far as naming, it should either be asbestos, or the archaic variant. There is no reason to rename it because some people don't like asbestos. Its based on a real mineral, keep it real.

Right now, we couldn't implement any sickness, so it would have no negatives. When Toady gets to long term sicknesses, we can add it for asbestos as well as lead, or any other hazard, so no special treatment (which would be gimmicky).

Unfortunately, right now fireproof isn't helpful. I've done testing, but at least with firebreath and fireballs, it bypasses the clothing layer all together. That was with nethercap style, constant temperature clothing. A wildfire might be different. Its something that would be helpful in the long term, but useless now. Asbestos would, currently, only serve as variety. I see no reason to not have this, other than some people being unable to cope with their current preconceived notions. Sure, asbestos says industrial age to me, but so does iron and steel.

[Niddhoger]

Also, the upper boundary of the mantle (magma sea) isn't even 1111*C.  Its supposed to vary between 500-900*C.  This all ignores the fact that lava never cools in game.

[SixOfSpades]

None of the other minerals are called by their archaic names (AFAIK), so why start now?

Sulfur is called brimstone. Uraninite is called pitchblende.

It was called pitchblende until very recently--Marie Curie called it by that name exclusively, I believe. In fact, I'd never even heard the name "uraninite" until your post. But you're right about brimstone.

[Vattic]

It was called pitchblende until very recently--Marie Curie called it by that name exclusively, I believe. In fact, I'd never even heard the name "uraninite" until your post. But you're right about brimstone.

Indeed. Pitchblende is only archaic in one sense of the word, but I included it anyway because it is an older term being used in favour of a newer one.

Personally I wouldn't necessarily object to asbestos being added or being called asbestos given that it's an old word. Like has been said lots of modern mineral names which are arguably more anachronistic. I remember GavJ talking about making a period mineral mod with archaic names which also has it's appeal.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Magma temperature makes a lot more sense if the world is supposed to be that deep. Allowing magma to cool would be the next step for that model. Personally I think the whole magma system needs a but of a rework (no cooling, invincible ice walls and so on do not really satisfy me).

[MDFification]

Magma temperature makes a lot more sense if the world is supposed to be that deep. Allowing magma to cool would be the next step for that model. Personally I think the whole magma system needs a but of a rework (no cooling, invincible ice walls and so on do not really satisfy me).

Aye. Magma evaporating instead of cooling into obsidian has always made me curious - doesn't that imply that the magma is in fact somehow picking up heat when it gets thinner?