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[SixOfSpades]

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral.

You are missing the point.  Its a real mineral and easy to create material from the raw ore, but the problem is the connotations surrounding the mineral all firmly place it within the time-frame of "sins of the INDUSTRIAL era" People associate it with this era, and not with the ancient Romans or even a facet of natural geology. . . . Its trope is firmly rooted in the Industrial era NOT the fantasy one.

Actually, no, I got your point just fine. But you know what? Tropes be damned. For my own part, when considering what would/wouldn't be appropriate to have in the game, I choose to defer to what my dwarves would or would not consider to be appropriate. You and I may have post-industrial reasons to think asbestos feels too modern, but the pre-industrial dwarves have anything but.

Just fold the properties of asbestos into the fantasy setting and rename it something else.  Those that know will know, those that don't won't bat an eye.

Fair enough, but I for one would rather have an educated the player base--however momentarily jarring that knowledge might be for them--than let them continue in comfortable ignorance. Personal preference.

All in all, I think the debate on this subject has already passed the point of diminishing returns. Original and interesting points might still be made, but I'm betting that if Toady's been paying attention at all, he's already made his decision. Whatever it is, I'll probably be happy with it . . . and if I'm not, as GavJ said, there's always modding.

[Ancalagon_TB]

A note on cancer and Asbestos, and how it would fit in the game:

Asbestos, to cause cancer, has to be inhaled.  If left undisturbed, it's hazard is quite low.   It's when you start mucking with it that fibers get airborne and then...

I think it could fit in DF, but I don't see it as mandatory either.  Including cancer however... well that would be quite challenging, as you really would need a system for chronic illness - cancer in general (and there are many types of cancer!), dementia, Parkinson, heart disease, arthritis etc etc.. I'm not sure it's "worth" going there.

[Urist Tilaturist]

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral.

You are missing the point.  Its a real mineral and easy to create material from the raw ore, but the problem is the connotations surrounding the mineral all firmly place it within the time-frame of "sins of the INDUSTRIAL era" People associate it with this era, and not with the ancient Romans or even a facet of natural geology. . . . Its trope is firmly rooted in the Industrial era NOT the fantasy one.

Actually, no, I got your point just fine. But you know what? Tropes be damned. For my own part, when considering what would/wouldn't be appropriate to have in the game, I choose to defer to what my dwarves would or would not consider to be appropriate. You and I may have post-industrial reasons to think asbestos feels too modern, but the pre-industrial dwarves have anything but.

Just fold the properties of asbestos into the fantasy setting and rename it something else.  Those that know will know, those that don't won't bat an eye.

Fair enough, but I for one would rather have an educated the player base--however momentarily jarring that knowledge might be for them--than let them continue in comfortable ignorance. Personal preference.

All in all, I think the debate on this subject has already passed the point of diminishing returns. Original and interesting points might still be made, but I'm betting that if Toady's been paying attention at all, he's already made his decision. Whatever it is, I'll probably be happy with it . . . and if I'm not, as GavJ said, there's always modding.

*sigh* Asbestos was indeed used by the Romans, never mind the middle ages on which DF is loosely based. It is a pre-industrial age material and absolutely belongs in game.

And, with all due respect, fuck tropes. Fuck tropes so hard they bleed from all orifices. Popular consciousness is a stupid, stupid thing, and we should not let it dictate what materials are in our game.

Adding cancer would I think be a good addition, caused by cave in dust, asbestos and fires with insufficient ventilation. Dwarves may have a higher tolerance of these things, but elves and humans should suffer the consequences. Especially elves. Diseases generally need a big upgrade, the mechanics already exist with forgotten beasts and miasma.

[Untrustedlife]

I recall that the same argument was made against adding same-sex relationships. They went into vanilla though, so that reasoning isn't sufficient to not add something. Plus, which fantasy setting is microcline associated with? If you're going to use an argument it needs to hold as a general case, otherwise it's a cherry picked argument and not valid.

Don't confuse the arguments that bigots make with "logic."  Most fantasy settings don't deal with homosexuality for two reasons 1) most people (and authors) aren't gay, and 2) they don't want to make a political statement and mix their work into the shitstorm that is gay rights atm.  (w/e your stance on the subject, its still a controversial hot-topic issue). 
As far as homosexuality in a fantasy setting? Homosexuality is NOT a new thing, and is simply a part of human nature.  No work featuring humans should have homosexuality be "out of place" as it is simply one expression of natural human behavior.

Really? The average member of the public is more aware of asbestos mining than virtually any other mineral in Dwarf Fortress

This is simply not true.  Go on, try it.  Walk outside and start asking random people where asbestos comes from.  Most people know its harmful and that there were lawsuits around it... but the lawsuits were NOT limited to just miners.  All sorts of construction workers (not just for buildings but ships and numerous factories as well) and tenants living in buildings insulted with asbestos sued over damages caused by asbestos, or sued to simply remove it.  Obama even made a stink about how he did some "Community Organizing" to remove asbestos from a housing project.  If anything that is the most recent example of a lawsuit on the general public's mind, and it has NOTHING to do with mining.  Even if they know there is mining involved, they probably assume several processes to refine the base mineral are involved.  Like plastic, or something else synthetic. 

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral.

You are missing the point.  Its a real mineral and easy to create material from the raw ore, but the problem is the connotations surrounding the mineral all firmly place it within the time-frame of "sins of the INDUSTRIAL era" People associate it with this era, and not with the ancient Romans or even a facet of natural geology.  As Gavj said, simply having the mineral in game is fine.  Its a natural mineral that has existed for eons and will exist for eons after us.  Its part of the world.  Asbestos however, is a refined product made by man.  Its trope is firmly rooted in the Industrial era NOT the fantasy one.  People can debate all they want about the properties of vampires and the # of legs a dragon has, but no one is going to question the inclusion of dragons and vampires in this FANTASY setting.  Radiation and Radiation poisoning are very real things, but are not considered appropriate for fantasy settings.  Imagine if Tolkein claimed that Gollum dug deep into the mountains and found a vein of -very- real uranium, and that by being fascinated by this material and staying near it too long all his hair fell out and he became the shrunken sickly thing we know of today.  This would simply feel out of place.  while Uranium and radiation poisoning are very real AND natural things, they are not typically associated with fantasy settings- but instead are concerns of the modern world.  You cannot ignore your audience when making a work, and the collective audience will not associate asbestos with romans (and those appropriate for dwarves to make) but with Lawsuits that are still going on today.

What people seem to forget is that I am all or adding asbestos into the game... the mineral and technology needed to create it certain fall within DF's setting.  However, I simply want "asbestos" to be renamed "dwarven wool/rock cloth" to avoid the connotations associated with asbestos AND as a convenient way to ignore its adverse health effects.  I imagine my army of dwarves all clothed in the very minerals they have mined themselves... NOT plant matter like elves, NOT some mundane animal product like silk or leather like humans, but out of ROCKS.  Its insanely dwarfy.  I simply want "asbestos" to be absorbed into a quirky thing dwarves do, and to abandon all the connotations linking it to lung cancer and lawsuits.  Take my Tolkien analogy earlier.  Instead of saying Gollum got warped by Uranium or Plutonium is off-putting, but substitute those with "a strange rock, suspiciously warm to the touch and glowing but infused with foul magics/cursed to weaken those that wield it...." and no one cares.  Just fold the properties of asbestos into the fantasy setting and rename it's something else.  Those that know will know, those that don't won't bat an eye.

Cancer would be easy to add as a syndrome. Just don't call it cancer. Call it "poisoning", dust poisoning or something. One thing I love about DF its realism alongside fantasy, it's cool to know "that exists". The idea that df take s these things into account is simply cool.So it should. Plenty of horrible things happen in game already, adding cancer isn't a stretch. The game is full of cannibalism, no one is upset by that . So why would anyone be upset by cancer.The game is a realistic fantasy world simulator, not just a simple fantasy world.The game is meant to be full of harsh reality. There is no reason not to add it.

[Ancalagon_TB]

I just find it would be a bit peculiar to have a very specific cancer for a very specific contaminant, and not have cancer from other causes, or idiopathic cancers, or heart disease, respiratory illnesses.... All which are far more common than asbestos-caused cancer. 

As far as not calling it cancer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cancer

Here we go again!

[Niddhoger]

Oh right, something I keep forgetting to bring up is that adding in asbestos lung cancer would be doubly weird considering that lead is perfectly safe in DF world.  You can outfit your military with lead flasks, store your food/drink in lead barrels, cook them on a lead kitchen counter.  Then you sit down in your lead lined dining room and eat off a lead table while siting in your lead chair.... all perfectly healthy!  Feeding babies out of dwarven bottles is even a proper part of dwarven childcare I bet.

So if asbestos is added to the gain AND is harmful... lead would really need to be updated as well.

[Manzeenan]

yeah i was thinking of lead and all the sorts of gasses that furnace operators breathe in, alcoholic mothers and children etc but here we are arguing about friggin asbestos, of couse the topic of same-sex relationships came in. Rock cloth is definitely dwarfy I must agree but this getting too heated I might need a rock cloth cloak. 

[GavJ]

The classic health risk of lead poisoning is not cancer. It might cause cancer in some small amounts, but generally the issue is developmental nervous system damage in growing children.
The second biggest risk is gastrointestinal damage.

But yes, asbestos cancer would still be weird just as the only environmental health threat in general. You also have mercury compounds in many forts, dust in general from mining, waterborne pathogens from crude shallow wells, there should be methane all over the place in forts, disease from rotting animals in the hallways, radon from underground rock living, much more heatstroke and hypothermia than currently, blah blah blah.

Yes, there's miasma, and dwarves don't enjoy murky water, but none of it actually hurts them yet.

[Niddhoger]

Oh, I wasn't implying that lead caused cancer- just that lead is toxic but has no side-effects in game even when eaten out of.  Realgar would be another candidate as well- it contains high amounts of arsenic and only needs to be handled (or powdered) to be poisonous.  Miners working through realgar (or masons chiseling it into plump helmet pots....) should also die of arsenic poisoning.  On top of that it is highly carcinogenic in its own right.  But yes, the point is that there are many environmental hazards in the game that are currently harmless.  Singling out asbestos would be weird.  I'd still love to have it in the game, just as "dwarven wool" or "Beard-Cloth" maybe.

[Reelya]

I think those names are terrible for asbestos: "dwarven wool". no thanks. Better, to use one of the old names like amianthus. Dictionary:

"Amianthus: A variety of asbestos with fine silky fibres which can be woven."

So, have amianthus thread and amianthus cloth. Making the thread should be a strand extractor job.

This is just better than "dwarven wool". It can be looked up in a dictionary by anyone keen enough, it literally means what it says, it also sounds better from a fantasy/historical point of view. Amianthus could be given poisonous qualities in a later update that also includes black lang, silicosis etc, and new people won't be freaking out so much about why "wool" they bought from traders is killing their dwarves.

We'd have endless conversations explaining to newbies that the "dwarven wool" is really not wool, and is poisonous, and that it's really asbestos, then another round of discussion "but why is it called 'wool' then?", vs just explaining "Amianthus is poisonous because it's a traditional name for asbestos".

[Niddhoger]

you mistake me, calling it something silly like dwarven wool/rock cloth would be a convenient way for it to function as asbestos yet leave behind the "all my dwarves are dying of cancer" side of the mineral.  We wouldn't both call it "dwarven wool" AND have it kill off our dwarves.  Personally I don't care what its called so long as it isn't labeled "asbestos"

[Urist Tilaturist]

you mistake me, calling it something silly like dwarven wool/rock cloth would be a convenient way for it to function as asbestos yet leave behind the "all my dwarves are dying of cancer" side of the mineral.  We wouldn't both call it "dwarven wool" AND have it kill off our dwarves.  Personally I don't care what its called so long as it isn't labeled "asbestos"

Why should it not be called asbestos, and have the !!fun!! Effects? A terrible price for a useful material seems very dwarven to me.

[Aseaheru]

Personally, I think that if you must call it something different from what it is, you should atleast call it something that you can use to find out what it is.

For instance, most people new to the game have no clue what hematite is. One min later they learn its an iron ore. Things like feather wood are also pretty self explanatory, since you can figure out what it is quickly. But 'dwarven wool'? What the hell is that? Wool made from dwarven beards?

[Niddhoger]

you mistake me, calling it something silly like dwarven wool/rock cloth would be a convenient way for it to function as asbestos yet leave behind the "all my dwarves are dying of cancer" side of the mineral.  We wouldn't both call it "dwarven wool" AND have it kill off our dwarves.  Personally I don't care what its called so long as it isn't labeled "asbestos"

Why should it not be called asbestos, and have the !!fun!! Effects? A terrible price for a useful material seems very dwarven to me.

Because as GavJ and I just mentioned, why would Toady single out asbestos for !fun! and ignore the other !fun! environments.  Not just asbestos, but coal mining produces "Coalworker's pneumoconiosis" or black lung.  "Silicosis" is a similar disease caused by excessive inhalation of silica dust.  Silica dust is made up of silicon and oxygen- two materials that combined make up 75% of the earth's crust.  Most minerals have silica directly in them (marble, slate, flint. quartzite, sandstone... I could really go on with silica materials in DF).  Long term miners are in general screwed... as is anyone who breathes in dust during a couple collapses.  The effects are similar to long term chain smokers, except worse. 

Also we mentioned lead.  While lead is heavy and makes poor barrels, there is nothing stopping you from storing all your booze and food in lead barrels then eating them off lead tables.  Your dwarves will never suffer neurological impairment. Furnace operators can be locked in a cramped room deep underground and pump out coke for months but never suffocate.  That furnace eats up oxygen and the coal production puts off tons of smoke- why haven't they died of carbon monoxide poisoning?

Dwarves are only mildly annoyed at having to drink from muddy/stagnant water- where is the dysentery and cholera? Why is a simple screw pump all that is needed to purifying water of all contaminants and make it perfectly safe to drink? A dwarf can gain an infection from having a wound cleaned with bad water, but its only a higher chance (but clean water isn't 0%, so its not all tied to the water). 

The point remains- if asbestos is added in and kills our dwarves, why wouldn't all the rest of the world do so first? Singling out asbestos would seem like a political message or something.

[Aseaheru]

 And whats to say that Toady wouldent add all those things, and more, if/when he adds asbestos? If you look, there is atleast one mod that adds most of those things. It dosent have asbestos, sadly...