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Author Topic: Request for a new type (or types) of stone  (Read 13560 times)

StagnantSoul

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 10:18:04 pm »

We don't have dragon leather. We do have roc leather, but dragon leather is a no. But, according to Kirito, dragon leather is surprisingly comfortable.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2014, 01:33:31 am »

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In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.
By those terms, you might as well describe all gemstones as gimmick because you can't build with them, they're only good for being shiny. If you're saying that my suggestion to add asbestos to the game makes about as much sense as finding jewels underground . . . thanks.

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A fantasy staple in a fantasy game is not quirky and does not make you stand out for the sake of it.
Let's be honest here. DF is not a fantasy game, but rather a fantasy game that prides itself on its technically accurate and realistic geology. Among all the dozens of types of stone with absolutely true-to-life physical properties, candy sticks out like the sorest of sore thumbs. If DF already included chrysotile/asbestos, and then someone came along and suggested adding adamantine, then you would be perfectly right to object, in fact I'd be right there with you. But instead, all I'm doing is the opposite, suggesting the inclusion of a real-life known mineral, with unusual but balanced properties, and allowing dwarves to capitalize on those properties in a fashion mirroring the way that the mineral has been used in the "proper" time period of Earth's history . . . and you think there's something wrong with that.

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Fireproof clothing is useless, since shields already block fire breath
Which, in my opinion, is a mistake, and always has been. Yes, in cases of fire breath, a shield would disperse the initial shock wave--but unless the rest of you is protected, the convection's going to get you anyway. (Which is why firefighters don't carry shields, they wear flexible and largely fireproof clothes that cover their entire bodies.) And if the breath is longer than a second or so, that shield is going to be either burned or melted, or at the very least too hot for you to hold on to any more. Don't get me wrong, an asbestos cloak won't do much against dragonbreath either: Yeah, you could cover your face and let the cooler parts of the flame harmlessly wash over you, but a direct, sustained blast would still destroy the cloak, and cook the dwarf inside it from the (much reduced, but still horrendous) heat transfer.
True, an asbestos shirt won't save you from magma, or a dragon--nor indeed should it. Nor should a shield, either. Unless they have magical properties, but that's a whole other arc.

(Asbestos shirts shouldn't exist at ALL, in my opinion. I've never worked with the stuff, but I have with fiberglass, and that's not really something you want rubbing against your skin. Personally, I would allow asbestos in the manufacture of Outer layer, but preferably Cover layer, garments--not Inner layer.)
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cyberTripping

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2014, 02:08:24 am »

I find it funny gavJ is working on a realistic geology engine for df and is getting upset over people wanting geology more detailed because its not the geology detail HE wants.

I on the other hand support this idea, ESPECIALLY because when we start getting updates around siege weaponry, I have a feeling fire will be involved.
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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2014, 02:18:50 am »

Yeah, and as other said, stone cloth is just really dwarfy...
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2014, 03:30:37 am »

I find it funny gavJ is . . . getting upset . . . because its not the geology detail HE wants.
Not necessarily. Call this my ego talking if you wish, but my theory is that because GavJ and I have locked horns on a good many topics, and been in cordial agreement on only a few, when he (assuming he) saw that I'd started a new thread, his gut reaction was to find something wrong with it. Normally that would be a sound strategy, but this time he just doesn't seem to have the grounds.

On the plus side, GavJ, I made the pottery Innovations more like you wanted after all. :)
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Putnam

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2014, 04:55:20 am »

Nah, it really is very anachronistic, which is a problem.

LMeire

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2014, 08:30:04 am »

Nah, it really is very anachronistic, which is a problem.

No it isn't.

Quote from: Wikipedia
History of use
Early uses

Asbestos use in human culture dates back at least 4,500 years, when evidence shows that inhabitants of the Lake Juojärvi region in East Finland strengthened earthenware pots and cooking utensils with the asbestos mineral anthophyllite (see Asbestos-ceramic).[12] The word asbestos comes from the ancient Greek ἄσβεστος, meaning "unquenchable" or "inextinguishable".[1][13] One of the first descriptions of a material that may have been asbestos is in Theophrastus, On Stones, from around 300 BC, although this identification has been questioned.[14] The naming of minerals was not very consistent in ancient times.[citation needed] In both modern and ancient Greek, the usual name for the material known in English as "asbestos" is amiantos ("undefiled", "pure") whence the term for it in, e.g., French amiante and Portuguese amianto. In modern Greek, the word ἀσβεστος or ασβέστης stands consistently and solely for lime.[citation needed]

The term asbestos is traceable to Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder's manuscript Natural History, and his use of the term asbestinon, meaning "unquenchable".[1][12][13] While Pliny is popularly credited with recognising the detrimental effects of asbestos on human beings,[15] examination of the primary sources reveals no support for that claim.[16]

Wealthy Persians amazed guests by cleaning a cloth by exposing it to fire. For example, according to Tabari, one of the curious items belonging to Khosrow II Parviz, the great Sassanian king (r. 531–579), was a napkin (Persian: منديل‎) that he cleaned simply by throwing it into fire. Such cloth is believed to have been made of asbestos imported over the Hindu Kush.[17] According to Biruni in his book, Gems, any cloths made of asbestos (Persian: آذرشست‎, āzarshost) were called shostakeh (Persian: شستكه‎).[18] Some Persians[who?][when?] believed the fiber was the fur of an animal, called the samandar (Persian: سمندر‎), which lived in fire and died when exposed to water,[19][better source needed][20] whence the former belief[by whom?] that the salamander could tolerate fire.[citation needed]

Charlemagne, the first Holy Roman Emperor (800–814), is said[by whom?] to have had a tablecloth made of asbestos.[21]

Marco Polo recounts having been shown, in a place he calls Ghinghin talas, "a good vein from which the cloth which we call of salamander, which cannot be burnt if it is thrown into the fire, is made ..."[22]

Some archeologists[who?] believe that ancients made shrouds of asbestos, wherein they burned the bodies of their kings, in order to preserve only their ashes, and prevent their being mixed with those of wood or other combustible materials commonly used in funeral pyres.[23][page needed][unreliable source?][24] Others[who?] assert that the ancients used asbestos to make perpetual wicks for sepulchral or other lamps.[19][better source needed] In more recent centuries, asbestos was indeed used for this purpose. Although asbestos causes skin to itch upon contact, ancient literature indicates that it was prescribed for diseases of the skin, and particularly for the itch. It is possible that they[who?] used the term asbestos for soapstone, because the two terms have often been confused throughout history.[23][page needed][unreliable source?]

If the technology cut-off is still 13-1400's then Asbestos is well within reason.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 08:36:16 am by LMeire »
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GavJ

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 08:42:11 am »

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I find it funny gavJ is working on a realistic geology engine for df and is getting upset over people wanting geology more detailed because its not the geology detail HE wants.
The rock that you get asbestos from is already in the game, which is great. Add as many rocks as you like. My objections were about the industrial process of making and using asbestos out of it, not it existing. Just like I would object to getting aluminum out of bauxite on an industrial scale in the 1300s, but the ore is fine.

Gemstones are period appropriate and don't strike anybody as silly (probably because they're more intuitive to process and have actual decorative usefulness).

Adamantine is period appropriate for fantasy stories of all sorts. Still not my favorite material, but well precedented. And much more useful in game.

Asbestos does basically nothing unless you change the shield system to be more realistically thermodynamic, and if you do that... it still does nothing, because asbestos melts at a mere 5% of the temperature of dragonbreath.

And if it's only for outer layers (which I agree is appropriate), then it's not really impacting the clothing industry either. So it's just this weird 500-years-too-early-for-mass-production industrial process that's sitting around in the game for no real reason.

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No it isn't.
Everybody in those stories is "amazed" by it, etc. Because it's generally the only example they've heard of it in their lives... it's not the technological skills required that make it anachronistic, it's just any actual routine use that is.

Probably mainly because it was pretty useless back then! Just like in DF...

It became widespread when it made sense. I.e. when we started making steam pipes and wall insulation, and brake pads.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 08:49:42 am by GavJ »
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LMeire

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 08:57:42 am »

...
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No it isn't.
Everybody in those stories is "amazed" by it, etc. Because it's generally the only example they've heard of it in their lives... it's not the technological skills required that make it anachronistic, it's just any actual routine use that is.

Probably mainly because it was pretty useless back then! Just like in DF...

Wootz/Damascus steel was considered just as amazing and magical for most of it's history, yet we still have steel-working as a game-staple.

It would be a niche material, to be sure. But considering that there's a lot more fire-breathing monsters and such in DF than in real-life, I don't think it'd be as useless a material as you're implying.
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GavJ

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2014, 09:03:48 am »

I suppose in the event that you happen to roll a fire breathing forgotten beast (not as hot as dragonbreath), and it gets trapped in the caverns, and you want to build up a force to reclaim the caverns, then you might realistically go seek out and mine the fabled chrysotile out of desperation and make some asbestos cloaks for your military.

If it were restricted in various ways (rare-ish stone type, long processing times, only outer clothing layers) to make situations like that the main ones where people would bother making it -- sort of like a special quest -- then that would probably be fine, I guess.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2014, 05:15:12 pm »

Serpentine already exists in DF. It includes chrysotile.
Shame that's not on the wiki yet, then. Either way, it seems a relatively simple matter to add the proper reactions to extract the strands, spin them into thread, etc., using Tomsod's raws or something close to them. Creating an accurate "lung cancer" syndrome, however, would probably be trickier, perhaps more so because it should probably ignore a dwarf's Disease Resistance.


Quote from: Wikipedia
Marco Polo recounts having been shown, in a place he calls Ghinghin talas, "a good vein from which the cloth which we call of salamander, which cannot be burnt if it is thrown into the fire, is made ..."[22]
Just FYI, it's worth pointing out here that it's extremely doubtful that Marco Polo did even half of what is claimed, because his Travels has both curious omissions (neither chopsticks nor the Great Wall are ever mentioned) and ridiculous inclusions (e.g., races of people born with a single leg, or with their heads embedded in their chests). There was indeed a Venetian merchant of the right name living at the right time, but many researchers believe his tales were really just a compilation of stories from many other sources (some of which were obviously fabricated, though they may have seemed plausible at the time), and that Polo himself was probably not even the editor of the finished book.
Although I do find it interesting that the ultimate source of this "cloth of salamander" is described as a "vein". Unless the early translators already knew that asbestos comes from underground, it seems clear that the original text had connotations of mining.


Gemstones are . . . more intuitive to process.
To notice that a raw gemstone has a pretty color, half the time you don't even have to wash it, yes. But to facet a gem, first you have to think that breaking it would be a good idea, and then comes developing the whole science of cleavage lines, internal optics, etc.
To start the asbestos process, however, all you have to do is scratch the stone with any metal tool, or even a fingernail, and go, "Whoa, dude, this rock has HAIR!"

Quote
And if it's only for outer layers (which I agree is appropriate)
Yeah, if I were making it in my fort, it'd just be for cloaks, mittens, and boots. Maybe pants. Things that can usually be thrown on in a hurry, no matter what else you're wearing. It would be best if they could be fastened closed quickly, too, so maybe a period version of Velcro might not be amiss, either. (Velcro is quite modern, yes, but inspired by extremely simple tech: Burrs stuck to a sock. There's no reason at all why that inspiration couldn't have occurred 500 or even 1000 years earlier.)

Quote
Everybody in those stories is "amazed" by it, etc. Because it's generally the only example they've heard of it in their lives... it's not the technological skills required that make it anachronistic, it's just any actual routine use that is.
Agreed, but then again, we're also agreed that dwarves are just a little bit more into mining and geology than humans, and would very likely pursue this "rock cloth" idea sooner, with more enthusiasm, and in greater volume than humans. Given its drawbacks, and probable scarcity, I don't think there's much chance of "mass production" of asbestos, at most it would probably just be a stash of emergency firefighting equipment, and some leather-lined oven mitts for the Furnace Operators.

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. . . it still does nothing, because asbestos melts at a mere 5% of the temperature of dragonbreath.
Yup. Useless against a direct hit, and just being caught in the wash could cause severe burns. Asbestos would be more logically used fighting things like brushfires, industrial accidents, and creatures with fire attacks that are much, much cooler than dragonbreath. That said, however, I see no reason for a dragon's fire to be anywhere near that hot: Why on earth would a dragon need to melt stone? Some fantasy series (Game of Thrones, for example) state that dragons breathe fire to cook their food, and will refuse to eat raw meat . . . but when your breath is hot enough to turn even bone directly to ash, good luck getting any nutrition out of that.
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Putnam

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2014, 05:21:49 pm »

Asbestos does basically nothing unless you change the shield system to be more realistically thermodynamic, and if you do that... it still does nothing, because asbestos melts at a mere 5% of the temperature of dragonbreath.

Uh... 5%? Compared to what?

GavJ

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2014, 05:42:29 pm »

Asbestos does basically nothing unless you change the shield system to be more realistically thermodynamic, and if you do that... it still does nothing, because asbestos melts at a mere 5% of the temperature of dragonbreath.

Uh... 5%? Compared to what?
The temperature of dragonbreath is ~39,500 degrees Rankine (50,000 urists in game -10,450 conversion)
The melting point of asbestos is 3,150 degrees Rankine (2700 fahrenheit + ~450 conversion)
3,150 / 39,500 = sorry, 8%

But still, it would last roughly as long as an ice cube near the inner mantle of the earth.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 05:44:21 pm by GavJ »
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Putnam

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2014, 05:58:05 pm »

Why are your conversions different? I'm fairly sure rankine is just urists -9540... unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "conversion"

Chevaleresse

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Re: Request for a new type (or types) of stone
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2014, 07:02:08 pm »

i don't think including dragonbreath in the conversation is really necessary seeing as it will melt addy if it is exposed long enough
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