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Petro Poroshenko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[Knit tie]

It was unique in other ways as well: It was the only truly industrialized genocide, with death factories and the giant ovens, and it was one of the few genocides in which the victims were not selected on some outer characteristic (belonging to a certain ethnic or cultural group, for example) but for purely racial reasons: Even a perfectly integrated half-Jew who had no idea of his jewish descent - and thus was completely indistinguishable from those around him - was not safe.

Helgo, let me just say that I absolutely agree with everything you've said and stop this discussion here, because I am really feeling like I would go tapdancing on a minefield if I were to continue talking about the Holocaust - too many possibilities to be misunderstood and come off as a piece of insensitive human waste that tries to argue that Jewish genocide didn't exist, and if there are things I would never do, being a Holocaust denier is one of them.

Like Helgo said, there are many reasons why the Holocaust is regarded as a unique event, thus deliberately equating it to other genocides is generally regarded as historical revisionism (usually of the anti-semitic kind). Not that I think you were doing that deliberately, it's just important to know the distinction. With that pointed out, I agree this tangent can end here.

I honestly didn't know that the word "Holocaust" itself was imbued with such exact definition - I used it as a synecdoche for genocides in general in the post you quoted originally. Rest assured, I did not want to deliberately equate the Holocaust with anything, but rather argue that it was not, unfortunately, the only example of genocide in human history.

[Helgoland]

Okay - I guess this was mostly Germans being Germans

[XXSockXX]

I honestly didn't know that the word "Holocaust" itself was imbued with such exact definition - I used it as a synecdoche for genocides in general in the post you quoted originally. Rest assured, I did not want to deliberately equate the Holocaust with anything, but rather argue that it was not, unfortunately, the only example of genocide in human history.

I know, that's why I quoted that post in the first place, to point out that you came off as implying things I didn't think you wanted to imply.

Okay - I guess this was mostly Germans being Germans

That too, probably.

[Knit tie]

Well, it looks like we have successfully avoided another highly inflammatory misunderstanding. I think we should rename this thread "Reconcillation edition" - look at how both pro-Russians and anti-Russians managed to escape the circular "No, Russia's still bad! No, West's still not good!" back-and-forth some ten or so pages ago.

[Owlbread]

Is any politician in Ukraine actually left-wing? The Communists seem like bog standard right-wing authoritarian Red Russian Nationalists like the Communists in the Russian Federation and the entire pro-Ukrainian opposition is centre right or far right

[Knit tie]

Is any politician in Ukraine actually left-wing? The Communists seem like bog standard right-wing authoritarian Red Russian Nationalists like the Communists in the Russian Federation and the entire pro-Ukrainian opposition is centre right or far right

I am honestly not sure. Most of Ukraine's officials nowadays are oligarchs anyway, who tend to be naturally right-wing.

[Owlbread]

These days it seems that most Eastern European countries are in the clutches of right-wing politics. Russia and Belarus are in the same boat as Ukraine.

[Sheb]

Depends how you define right-wing I guess. Wouldn't the Radical Party count as left-wing?

Also guys, don't forget the Roma. They too were gassed and burned by the Nazis.

[Knit tie]

These days it seems that most Eastern European countries are in the clutches of right-wing politics. Russia and Belarus are in the same boat as Ukraine.

Russia, Ukraine and Belarus all went through "the 90s", when Yeltsin's liberal reforms have collapsed their economies and brought widespread misery and ruin, so many people there still are extremely wary of what the western press would call "left-wing politics". Also, Russia's "liberal opposition" are a bunch of horrifically reactionary elitist neocons who constantly extoll the virtues of "liberalism" in-between deriding ordinary "peasants" for not being able to distinguish between freshly-squeezed orange juice and the one made from concentrate, for example, so that also doesn't help.

[Sheb]

Uh, the extreme liberalism of the 90's would totally be right-wing by Western European standard. Left-wing politics in this case would mean a strong social safety net mostly.

[Owlbread]

It's hard for me to tell whether the Radical Party are actually left wing or they just really hate oligarchs and Jews.

[Sheb]

Yeah, I'd love to have the opinion of people that knows better on them. I remember Knit Tie classifying them as "neo-Nazis", but looking at their wiki page, they didn't seem that bad.

[Knit tie]

Yeah, I'd love to have the opinion of people that knows better on them. I remember Knit Tie classifying them as "neo-Nazis", but looking at their wiki page, they didn't seem that bad.

That's because their English wiki page is edited by the people who believe in what western media says. I call them Neo-Nazi because they are the official patrons of several openly neo-nazi "volunteer battalions", such as the Azov.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

These days it seems that most Eastern European countries are in the clutches of right-wing politics. Russia and Belarus are in the same boat as Ukraine.

Russia, Ukraine and Belarus all went through "the 90s", when Yeltsin's liberal reforms have collapsed their economies and brought widespread misery and ruin, so many people there still are extremely wary of what the western press would call "left-wing politics". Also, Russia's "liberal opposition" are a bunch of horrifically reactionary elitist neocons who constantly extoll the virtues of "liberalism" in-between deriding ordinary "peasants" for not being able to distinguish between freshly-squeezed orange juice and the one made from concentrate, for example, so that also doesn't help.

Uncontrolled privatization of national assets = left-wing politics

You made my day

[Knit tie]

These days it seems that most Eastern European countries are in the clutches of right-wing politics. Russia and Belarus are in the same boat as Ukraine.

Russia, Ukraine and Belarus all went through "the 90s", when Yeltsin's liberal reforms have collapsed their economies and brought widespread misery and ruin, so many people there still are extremely wary of what the western press would call "left-wing politics". Also, Russia's "liberal opposition" are a bunch of horrifically reactionary elitist neocons who constantly extoll the virtues of "liberalism" in-between deriding ordinary "peasants" for not being able to distinguish between freshly-squeezed orange juice and the one made from concentrate, for example, so that also doesn't help.

Uncontrolled privatization of national assets = left-wing politics

You made my day

Well that's what the fuckers told us they were doing - "left-wing, liberal politics"! Forever ruined the actual leftists' reputation right then and there.