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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Knit tie Define pro-Russian, please

[Knit tie]

Of course the old kneejerk fallback, we just hate Russia and can't be trusted.

No, you just disagree with my point of view, that's all. It's an unfortunate quality of the human psyche that we consider arguments of those whose political position is different from ours to be simultaneously more radical and less intelligent than they really are. I am trying my best to overcome this inclination, but I am, sadly, not always successful

I still see your point in that Russia did escalate this crisis, whatever reason it had in doing so, and that denying the fact that without its annexation of Crimea no war would most likely occur is just delusional.

Knit tie Define pro-Russian, please

I don't really believe that either the Donbass rebels or the Ukrainian separatists can claim moral superiority over each other, at least as far as motives go: those who want freedom vs. those who wish to preserve the integrity of their country, and I recognise that Russian annexation of Crimea is the prime reason why this conflict occured in the first place, but I still support the rebels and, by proxy, Russia because, silly as it is in the modern world to be so tied to one nation, I am Russian. A sort of irrational patriotism, if you will, but one that I am willing to abandon if the rebels start growing more radical and start to turn into terrorists, rather than just separatists.

[Erkki]

You know, one can perfectly well be a great patriot while opposing whatever the current leadership is doing if its thought to be harmful to the country and its people way or another.

[mainiac]

Knit Tie, you dont seem to have a problem with thinking those you disagree with are more radical and less intelligent.  You are rather ahead of the curve in that regard.  You seem to have a problem with putting too much faith in sources that should be treated with extreme caution.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Knit tie Define pro-Russian, please

I don't really believe that either the Donbass rebels or the Ukrainian separatists can claim moral superiority over each other, at least as far as motives go: those who want freedom vs. those who wish to preserve the integrity of their country, and I recognise that Russian annexation of Crimea is the prime reason why this conflict occured in the first place, but I still support the rebels and, by proxy, Russia because, silly as it is in the modern world to be so tied to one nation, I am Russian. A sort of irrational patriotism, if you will, but one that I am willing to abandon if the rebels start growing more radical and start to turn into terrorists, rather than just separatists.

Amusing.

The next question: how will Russia (or Russian nation) benefit if rebels (your terminology) will win?

[Knit tie]

You know, one can perfectly well be a great patriot while opposing whatever the current leadership is doing if its thought to be harmful to the country and its people way or another.

Of course! And I would be opposing Russia if it was doing something like the first Chechen war, with murder of civilians and all, but, in my opinion, the Ukrainian crisis is much more morally grey and ambiguous than that.

Knit Tie, you dont seem to have a problem with thinking those you disagree with are more radical and less intelligent. 

I actually do. I am sorry if I give in to my more animal instincts sometimes, rest assured that I am of a very high opinion of you all and consider you to be my friends.

You seem to have a problem with putting too much faith in sources that should be treated with extreme caution.

I did make that one absolutely embarassing mistake with the badly photoshopped plane photo, yes, but I try as hard as I can to be reasonable otherwise. I just happen to agree with the opinion of the man who said that it was irrational national pride, and not ethinic hatred or imperialistic ambitions, that drove Russians to annex Crimea and Donbassians to start the secession.

FAKEEDIT:

The next question: how will Russia (or Russian nation) benefit if rebels (your terminology) will win?

There'll be a big "We won!" celebration at first, but, all in all, Russia will only lose, as it will be left with the need to provide aid to a completely devastated Donbass amid an economic recession and a torpedoed relations with the USA to boot.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

There'll be a big "We won!" celebration at first, but, all in all, Russia will only lose, as it will be left with the need to provide aid to a completely devastated Donbass amid an economic recession and a torpedoed relations with the USA to boot.

So by supporting "rebels" you have an anti-Russian position, right?

[Knit tie]

There'll be a big "We won!" celebration at first, but, all in all, Russia will only lose, as it will be left with the need to provide aid to a completely devastated Donbass amid an economic recession and a torpedoed relations with the USA to boot.

So by supporting "rebels" you have an anti-Russian position, right?

A position contrary to the realpolitik interests of Russia, yes indeed!

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Oh.... I see

Умом Россию не понять,
Аршином общим не измерить:
У ней особенная стать –
В Россию можно только верить.

Spoiler: one of many English translations of the verse (click to show/hide)

 
Russia cannot be understood with the mind
Or measured with a common yardstick,
She has a peculiar character –
In Russia, one can only believe.

[Knit tie]

You are correct, UR, the current desire of Russians to suport the Donbass is born not out of reason, but rather out of a quixotic desite to do the "right thing." But then again, is it such an uncommon occurence in politics?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You know, If Russian television will start propagandizing that DNR\LNR are bad guys. I think one week will be enough to reverse the opinion.

[Knit tie]

You know, If Russian television will start propagandizing that DNR\LNR are bad guys. I think one week will be enough to reverse the opinion.

Perhaps, but what does it change? The same applies to the Ukrainian television and people. It is possible to imagine your state channels condemning Kolomoisky, for example, and his volunteer battalions as "criminals", if the political situation in Kiyv changes.

[Guardian G.I.]

Spoiler: A group photo of some Azov Battalion troopers. The European spirit is palpable. (click to show/hide)

What an idiotic fake....

NATO Flag and nazi flag in one picture made me lol so hard. Dear Russian propagandists add Israeli flag to the mix next time.

BTW, guys, note how Russian propaganda works on crating NATO=Third Reich formula in heads of Russians

Some vatniks traced the origin of that photo: it reportedly originated on a VK page of a guy named Oleg Penya, a Ukrainian nationalist from Zhitomir who serves in the Azov battalion:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He deleted his VK account after being disclosed.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Khm...  Heard that surname.  He is exactly that kind of a person who will proudly wave swastika and do a nazi salute at any opportunity. But still Nato flag  doesn't fit. Because that kind of person like "Jew-controlled USA" no more than "Jew-controlled Russia"

[Helgoland]

I still don't get what's bad about having Nazis fight for you. Would you rather have them not being hit by bullets? You just have to take care of them once they get home, which is difficult in a Western European state, but should be no problem at all in countries with a less, um, squeamish populace.